[Moonshine Fox]

I´m on the fence about the Strength thing.

As I understood, Strength still plays a role in determining the Attack Value, which can result in Edge gain (or Edge-Denial, depending on the opponent), while it doesn´t contribute to the Damage Value. That does make some sense for many melee weapons, especially Blades and Knifes. The most important factor with bladed and pointed weapons is where you hit, not how much muscle you put behind it. That´s why I actually find SR5 more unrealistic in this regard: A swift surprise attacker with a knife is a deadly threat in reality, even if it´s just some lanky methhead. However, in SR5 that Methhead (or BTL-Junkie) would never be able to significantly hurt you, even with a lucky hit. Strength was everything. Now, Strength can only give you - well - a bit of an Edge. That somewhat fits, at least for these kind of weapons. And while it doesn´t fit as good with weapons like Clubs or Axes: Lifting an axe over your head and smash it straight down is something even a Strength 1 nerd should be able to pull off. It will be a shitty performance though, which will likely give the opposition Edge as well. And if that´s not enough punishment for the potential 1-Strength Axe murderer build, the GM could also argue with encumbrance: "Yeah, you can take your Axe, but not much stuff beyond that".

There are still two major problems here:

• The whole Attack Value/Armor/Edge-mechanic (as far as we know so far) is likely to be a total disaster. 1 Edge isn´t doing much of a difference, and with a maximum of 2 Edge per pass (or is it per round? Yeah, it´s probably per round, since that would be even worse  ), Strength will often yield no benefit at all - Just like armor. If that whole mechanic wouldn´t be so stupid, there would be much less grief about Strengt only counting for the Attack value.
• With unarmed Attacks still using Strength for the purpose of Damage Calculation, Strength-maxed Characters would be more dangerous unarmed than with a melee weapon - and that just isn´t realistic, let alone balanced. The main advantage of unarmed combat is that it´s available everywhere. Using a weapon should always be more of threat than using your fists alone (apart from adepts, maybe).

There are easy fixes to these problems. One would be to tweak the Attack Value/Armor/Edge clusterfuck interaction into something more reasonable and rewarding. Shouldn´t be too hard, and it´s also a good idea when looking at the other half of that problem (armor being almost useless for avoiding damage and giving you magic mojo points instead). The other would be an option to further buff the damage of Melee weapons for exceptionally stong characters. It´s just really telling that the writers weren´t able to see these pitfalls themselfes...

Do we have any concrete values of weapon damage vs. how easy it is to get a high STR value?

High str seems to be as easy/hard to get as before (don't have character creation rules, so lick a salt block with that), though cyber-augmentation is still unknown. We've got a few weapon damage values from the Quick Start Rules. They are less then older editions, but soak pools are also smaller so it balances out fairly well, like using the old soak dice from armor as auto-successes. That my change once the full rules come out so don't take that as gospel yet.

[Finstersang]

On a first glance, the edge effects don´t look really convincing, especially the 1 Edge - 1 Dice - reroll.

However, I wouldn´t underestimate the fact that you can choose when and for what particular effect you want to spend Edge. 1 Edge != 1 Dice.

Can anyone tell how this 2 Edge-Limit works? Is that really part of the rules? Is it just for one Action or one Pass? Or is it really for the whole combat turn? Because holy shit would that be stupid 

[Banshee]

On a first glance, the edge effects don´t look really convincing, especially the 1 Edge - 1 Dice - reroll.

However, I wouldn´t underestimate the fact that you can choose when and for what particular effect you want to spend Edge. 1 Edge != 1 Dice.

Can anyone tell how this 2 Edge-Limit works? Is that really part of the rules? Is it just for one Action or one Pass? Or is it really for the whole combat turn? Because holy shit would that be stupid 

first there are no passes anymore, everyone just gets the one turn per round
as for the other .. wording is confusing and it is on our errata list to get clarification (they way it reads could be per action or per round) .. we are pushing for it to be per action since that is how we play tested it

[Moonshine Fox]

On a first glance, the edge effects don´t look really convincing, especially the 1 Edge - 1 Dice - reroll.

However, I wouldn´t underestimate the fact that you can choose when and for what particular effect you want to spend Edge. 1 Edge != 1 Dice.

Can anyone tell how this 2 Edge-Limit works? Is that really part of the rules? Is it just for one Action or one Pass? Or is it really for the whole combat turn? Because holy shit would that be stupid 

first there are no passes anymore, everyone just gets the one turn per round
as for the other .. wording is confusing and it is on our errata list to get clarification (they way it reads could be per action or per round) .. we are pushing for it to be per action since that is how we play tested it

So like,  you take your two minor actions which end up giving you +2 edge, but then when you take your major action you can get another point of edge from it? Or more all your actions can only give you a +2, but someone else’s actions that same round can give you another 1 or 2?

[忍]

Just to throw this into the mix, the new Edge mechanic seems strikingly familiar to the "blue wave" of boost dice from FFG's Genesys system.

[Banshee]

Just to throw this into the mix, the new Edge mechanic seems strikingly familiar to the "blue wave" of boost dice from FFG's Genesys system.

if you had seen the first version that went to play testing you would have saw a LOT of familiarity there

[tenchi2a]

Just to throw this into the mix, the new Edge mechanic seems strikingly familiar to the "blue wave" of boost dice from FFG's Genesys system.

if you had seen the first version that went to play testing you would have saw a LOT of familiarity there

That statement puts way too much credence to the belief that CGL is more interested in following some trend then making a game that their player base would like.
And before it comes up, I know that CGL is a business and needs to make money, but there are to many companies these days following market trends which change with the wind.
IMHO, The gaming industry needs to remember that the old players where there before gaming became main stream, and have supported Shadowrun through all its owners and developers.
My point is, while I don't begrudge any company for trying to make money, I don't care for the only getting new players and old players be damned attitudes that most companies have these days now I'm not automatically accusing CGL of this, but most of what has been seen is leaning that way.

[adzling]

it's particularly galling considering the simpler shadowrun already exists and will continue to be sold; Shadowrun Anarchy.

6e is what Anarchy should have been.
That would have worked well for the more casual player who doesn't like crunch and could care less about realism / sensible outcomes and just want to throw fireballs and shoot shit up.

That would have then left the opening for 5e to be simplified and the borked subsystems fixed.

Instead we have two systems that serve the same player / market.
I have a really hard time understanding how THAT decision was made.
"We already have a rules light system, so let's build ANOTHER rules light system, but different".
That's entirely befuddling to me.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Has any of the live play things shown how enemy edge works. I’m usually the GM and the idea of tracking 6 dudes edge and individually determining each action how to use edge sounds like a nightmare. Do they have group edge at least.

[Moonshine Fox]

Just to throw this into the mix, the new Edge mechanic seems strikingly familiar to the "blue wave" of boost dice from FFG's Genesys system.

if you had seen the first version that went to play testing you would have saw a LOT of familiarity there

That statement puts way too much credence to the belief that CGL is more interested in following some trend then making a game that their player base would like.
And before it comes up, I know that CGL is a business and needs to make money, but there are to many companies these days following market trends which change with the wind.
IMHO, The gaming industry needs to remember that the old players where there before gaming became main stream, and have supported Shadowrun through all its owners and developers.
My point is, while I don't begrudge any company for trying to make money, I don't care for the only getting new players and old players be damned attitudes that most companies have these days now I'm not automatically accusing CGL of this, but most of what has been seen is leaning that way.

Yeah, but game companies have been ripping off each others ideas for a very long time now. Most of the major games out there now you can find echos of other systems in them, and that's not inherently a bad thing. Why re-invent the wheel after all. At least they didn't just copy it whole-sale with no changes like some other games have done.

[Ghost Rigger]

Why re-invent the wheel after all.

Copying the wheel doesn't work too well when what you need is an inclined plane.

[tenchi2a]

Just to throw this into the mix, the new Edge mechanic seems strikingly familiar to the "blue wave" of boost dice from FFG's Genesys system.

if you had seen the first version that went to play testing you would have saw a LOT of familiarity there

That statement puts way too much credence to the belief that CGL is more interested in following some trend then making a game that their player base would like.
And before it comes up, I know that CGL is a business and needs to make money, but there are to many companies these days following market trends which change with the wind.
IMHO, The gaming industry needs to remember that the old players where there before gaming became main stream, and have supported Shadowrun through all its owners and developers.
My point is, while I don't begrudge any company for trying to make money, I don't care for the only getting new players and old players be damned attitudes that most companies have these days now I'm not automatically accusing CGL of this, but most of what has been seen is leaning that way.

Yeah, but game companies have been ripping off each others ideas for a very long time now. Most of the major games out there now you can find echos of other systems in them, and that's not inherently a bad thing. Why re-invent the wheel after all. At least they didn't just copy it whole-sale with no changes like some other games have done.

The real question is what was so game destroying about the current wheel that a new tire would not fix it.
IMHO between 4th and 5th you have a good game, the issues was that the developers went overboard trying to fix 4th in the wrong direction.
Now they are jumping off the cliff in that direction. I will be the first to say that 4th and 5th needed work, but 6th has taken everything that was bad and "good" about them and throw it out to settle on one god mechanic to rule them all and a smaller corebook.
I'm sorry but reduced page count is not a key buying factor for me when getting into a RPG, in fact I tend to see it as a turnoff since things have to be cut just to hit an arbitrary number. And they act like this is a must buy key feature(It's one the sale sheet as such).

[Ixal]

I guess they are seeing how well the extremely simplyfied D&D 5E performs and want in on the action of getting a new generation of players who seem to have even less patience for reading and remembering rules or basic math.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Is 5e d&d still going strong. My group played it initially but as it went on the simplified system wore on people. From some players in my group lack of build options. Others the illogic of advantage/disadvantage. The small proficiency bonus ruled by a d20. We haven’t played it in a while.

[Ixal]

Is 5e d&d still going strong. My group played it initially but as it went on the simplified system wore on people. From some players in my group lack of build options. Others the illogic of advantage/disadvantage. The small proficiency bonus ruled by a d20. We haven’t played it in a while.

Sadly, 5E is the best selling edition of D&D so far.