[Ixal]

Basically it will be like Traveller where you create complete characters at the start and any future advancement is through gear and maybe the occasional extra point.

So guess everyone will put Ressources to E (or maybe C or D for street sams) because you can upgrade your gear much more easily than your skills.
On the other hand, didn't they also say that they removed gear restrictions at chargen? Basically they seem to have removed advancement completely. Not really a fan of that.

I wonder how that will affect the balance between Nuyen and karma archetypes.

[Moonshine Fox]

Why would training put your character into inoperative status? One doesn't train 18 hours a day every day, you can do other things around your training with little disruption to it. Also, did they mention if you were required to go into a training school no mater what? The sammy blazing away with his Ingram on every run under the sun is engaging in live fire practice rather then simply going to the range. Arguably a better teacher!

As for the skills as groups, feels like a bit of the older editions creeping back in. Not sure of other tables, but I personally saw people either raise a single skill by itself, or the full group as that was more cost efficient then raising just two skills in a group. Maybe this was something that was seen a lot more overall so they decided to go with that while cutting down on skills people just didn't use much.

[Moonshine Fox]

Just to throw this into the mix, the new Edge mechanic seems strikingly familiar to the "blue wave" of boost dice from FFG's Genesys system.

if you had seen the first version that went to play testing you would have saw a LOT of familiarity there

That statement puts way too much credence to the belief that CGL is more interested in following some trend then making a game that their player base would like.
And before it comes up, I know that CGL is a business and needs to make money, but there are to many companies these days following market trends which change with the wind.
IMHO, The gaming industry needs to remember that the old players where there before gaming became main stream, and have supported Shadowrun through all its owners and developers.
My point is, while I don't begrudge any company for trying to make money, I don't care for the only getting new players and old players be damned attitudes that most companies have these days now I'm not automatically accusing CGL of this, but most of what has been seen is leaning that way.

Yeah, but game companies have been ripping off each others ideas for a very long time now. Most of the major games out there now you can find echos of other systems in them, and that's not inherently a bad thing. Why re-invent the wheel after all. At least they didn't just copy it whole-sale with no changes like some other games have done.

The real question is what was so game destroying about the current wheel that a new tire would not fix it.
IMHO between 4th and 5th you have a good game, the issues was that the developers went overboard trying to fix 4th in the wrong direction.
Now they are jumping off the cliff in that direction. I will be the first to say that 4th and 5th needed work, but 6th has taken everything that was bad and "good" about them and throw it out to settle on one god mechanic to rule them all and a smaller corebook.
I'm sorry but reduced page count is not a key buying factor for me when getting into a RPG, in fact I tend to see it as a turnoff since things have to be cut just to hit an arbitrary number. And they act like this is a must buy key feature(It's one the sale sheet as such).

Considering page count is a major component of the cost to print, yeah it's a key feature from a business perspective. Even trade paperbacks run into this. Not to mention that a bigger book is more likely to have binding issues, something we can all agree sucks

I played a lot more 3rd edition then anything else with Shadowrun, and to be honest what I've been able to find out about the rules beyond the rumors, it feels like they've taken and melded the best parts of 5th into an updated version of 3rd. Keeping the base simple but leaving it open for a lot of flexibility and expanding complexity as the company and players need.

[Finstersang]

..OK caught about half of tonight's live play session (was busy in the kitchen).

When the sidebar chat moved to purchasing/upgrading skills I found another major downside.  Instead of it taking 2 Karma x skill rating to learn/improve a skill, it now takes 5 Karma.  Furthermore the time span is increased from days x rating (1 - 4) and weeks x rating (5+) to one full month x skill rating.  This will really stifle character advancement particularly in a homebrew to the point your character will be relatively "static" for a long time.  It will also likely mean few characters will take anything above a Low lifestyle as it could get costly (increasing your firearms skill to say, 6 suddenly costs you 12,000¥ at a low lifestyle plus the training cost). So much for what you made on that last run that you wanted to put away for that new piece of chrome or wetware.

The time factor will not have as much an impact in missions play as you can take as much downtime as needed between sessions however the resources impact will still be there. For example my character Leela who has a middle lifestyle, getting that rating 6 in a single skill would cost 30 Karma and 30,000¥ (about the price for a degree at a state college!). 

The way it was explained is that all skills are now skill groups and sub-classes (like say Pistols) are now specialisations that still require you to have the base group skill.  It wasn't explained how much it cost on time and Karma for specialisations and how far one could increase them (I came away with the impression that you need to raise the core skill first to improve the specialisation further).  If Karma awards are about the same as they currently are in 5E, it would mean very, very slow character advancement overall.  I don't know how others feel, but if I devote weeks if not months to playing and really don't see my character improving very much, I'll bag it and go find some other way to spend my time that is more rewarding (or just stay with 5E).

Just Wow. Why put in a rule that's going to have to be completely ignored? That's just doesn't make any sense. How did that get through play test?
As to the raising cost did they increase karma awards to go with it?

Skills in 6E are more broader and thus more valuable than the more specialized skills in previous Editions. The increased price tag is justified with or without an increase in Karma awards.

That being said, the suggested Karma (and Nuyen!) awards in previous Editions have always been to low. You often started with a pretty optimized and powerfull character right from the get go, but it takes a lot of gaming sessions to noticable advance your char. And a rating*months training time surely isn´t very helpfull regarding this problem. However, we don´t know yet if these training intervalls have to untinterrupted downtime sessions (that would be terrible!) and how they intervalls can be modified by stuff like lifestyle choices, professional trainers etc. Maybe in 6E, contacts that can teach you new stuff or paid courses will finally be worthwhile?

But I agree, that long training intervall is a kind of sour first impression for the direction of character advancements in 6E. And there would actually be a lot to improve, because character advancements (in contrast to character building) wasn´t a strong suit of the last 2 Editions of Shadowrun either. Progressive pricing for Attribute and Skill enhancements, in combination with a character creations system with liniar advancement cost, is a big incentive for players to min-max at character creation and buy mostly cheap side skills and perks later in the game. Monetary Advancements (Gear, Augmentations...) were even more problematic than Karma Advancement. Stuff like Augmentations and Decking equipment was raised in cost in 5E, so if you played one of these Archetypes, you usually took the best you could afford at chargen and never upgraded it. And if you actually did save up your Money to buy a Rating 3 Synaptic Booster or a High-Level Deck, it really stretched the plausibility of the character´s motiviation: "Wow, I´ve saved up more money than a wageslave will earn in their entire live. I could buy a house. I could get out of this dangerous life in the shadows. But I´d rather spend that small fortune to put more chrome inside me so I´m a little bit better suited when I continue my dangerous life in the shadows" Hard to justify without qualities like Augmentation Addiction, Thrillseeker etc. Meanwhile, "Paranormals" like Mages, Adepts and, to a degree, Technomancers, often had troubles to find meaningfull ways to spend their money. The price for most other types of equipment, and especially magical equipment, was way too low and there was rarely a (financial) reason to not take the best you can get.

Because of this, I also really hope that top-tier weapons of a certain category will have a more punishing price tag than in the previous Editions. Taking the Ares Alpha was a no-brainer in 5E: Yes , it´s sooooo more expensive than a low-tier Assualt rifle - but compared to a new Augmentation, it´s still dirt cheap and gives you a lot more noticable advantages.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I never understood the value of any training time. Presumedly you are using the skill as you go on runs I think that is enough justification to raise it narratively. And mechanics who the hell wants a system where you spend or out aside karma but don’t get to see using it for 6 months whether that is with ongoing runs or not.

The costs I always felt compared to attributes group skill costs were too high. So if they are the same is still it’s still too high comparatively. Without knowing rewards hard to say if it’s too high vs the game.

[FastJack]

I never understood the value of any training time. Presumedly you are using the skill as you go on runs I think that is enough justification to raise it narratively. And mechanics who the hell wants a system where you spend or out aside karma but don’t get to see using it for 6 months whether that is with ongoing runs or not.

The costs I always felt compared to attributes group skill costs were too high. So if they are the same is still it’s still too high comparatively. Without knowing rewards hard to say if it’s too high vs the game.

Even cops and soldiers have to spend X hours a month at the firing range, even if they pull their gun everyday. If you want to go realistic, every month you don't use a skill should decrease it's rank by 1.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I never understood the value of any training time. Presumedly you are using the skill as you go on runs I think that is enough justification to raise it narratively. And mechanics who the hell wants a system where you spend or out aside karma but don’t get to see using it for 6 months whether that is with ongoing runs or not.

The costs I always felt compared to attributes group skill costs were too high. So if they are the same is still it’s still too high comparatively. Without knowing rewards hard to say if it’s too high vs the game.

Even cops and soldiers have to spend X hours a month at the firing range, even if they pull their gun everyday. If you want to go realistic, every month you don't use a skill should decrease it's rank by 1.

So a game that uses edge to replace shooting modifiers is going to go full simulationist in advancement the one place im guessing pretty much no one wants It. The one thing I never heard was hey you know waiting 3 runs to see the fruits of my labor is too fast. Instead I want to wait like 12 maybe 24 runs before I see an improvement.

[FastJack]

I never understood the value of any training time. Presumedly you are using the skill as you go on runs I think that is enough justification to raise it narratively. And mechanics who the hell wants a system where you spend or out aside karma but don’t get to see using it for 6 months whether that is with ongoing runs or not.

The costs I always felt compared to attributes group skill costs were too high. So if they are the same is still it’s still too high comparatively. Without knowing rewards hard to say if it’s too high vs the game.

Even cops and soldiers have to spend X hours a month at the firing range, even if they pull their gun everyday. If you want to go realistic, every month you don't use a skill should decrease it's rank by 1.

So a game that uses edge to replace shooting modifiers is going to go full simulationist in advancement the one place im guessing pretty much no one wants It. The one thing I never heard was hey you know waiting 3 runs to see the fruits of my labor is too fast. Instead I want to wait like 12 maybe 24 runs before I see an improvement.

I don't know, I haven't seen all the details in the rules for the advancement. But I also know a lot of people play that the break between runs is downtime of months as well, so it still works in that situation. I guess YMMV, since I never played a version that the next run was coming over your commlink when the last one just wrapped up.

[Banshee]

notes on advancement (specifically skills)

Yes karma cost are higher, basically on par with skills groups ... because well they are basically skill groups now .. also the same cost as attributes
Specializations and expertise cost are pretty cheap ... same cost as a spell

as for training times ... they are purely a suggestion and explicitly states that, so if you think they are too much cut them back

[Hobbes]

When the sidebar chat moved to purchasing/upgrading skills I found another major downside.  Instead of it taking 2 Karma x skill rating to learn/improve a skill, it now takes 5 Karma.  Furthermore the time span is increased from days x rating (1 - 4) and weeks x rating (5+) to one full month x skill rating. 

It'll just push char-gen in a familiar "Build Tall, Not Wide" direction.  From the assorted posts char-gen is still skill or stat points that increase 1 for 1, and then Karma increase post-gen is an exponential increasing cost.  I presume it'll be the same go big or go home for skill and stat allocation at chargen then slow incremental growth for mundanes. 

I didn't expect that to change, I just hoped they'd dial it back.  5th Edition Shadowrun character advancement math is one of the worst parts of the game.

Hopefully they removed the 1/2 Logic limitation on skill training.  Training one skill a month would be painful.  Mundanes would just wind up with a huge backlog of training time if they did more than one run a month. 

[Shinobi Killfist]

I never understood the value of any training time. Presumedly you are using the skill as you go on runs I think that is enough justification to raise it narratively. And mechanics who the hell wants a system where you spend or out aside karma but don’t get to see using it for 6 months whether that is with ongoing runs or not.

The costs I always felt compared to attributes group skill costs were too high. So if they are the same is still it’s still too high comparatively. Without knowing rewards hard to say if it’s too high vs the game.

Even cops and soldiers have to spend X hours a month at the firing range, even if they pull their gun everyday. If you want to go realistic, every month you don't use a skill should decrease it's rank by 1.

So a game that uses edge to replace shooting modifiers is going to go full simulationist in advancement the one place im guessing pretty much no one wants It. The one thing I never heard was hey you know waiting 3 runs to see the fruits of my labor is too fast. Instead I want to wait like 12 maybe 24 runs before I see an improvement.

I don't know, I haven't seen all the details in the rules for the advancement. But I also know a lot of people play that the break between runs is downtime of months as well, so it still works in that situation. I guess YMMV, since I never played a version that the next run was coming over your commlink when the last one just wrapped up.

I don’t see 2+ a month as right after the last one wrapped up. Most runs are 2-3 days and since the pay is not that much above lifestyle costs people who want to upgrade gear want more than 1 a month so they can actually save. But it sounds like it’s a optional rule, not sure why they would set the standard option out such an absurd length but oh well.

[Shinobi Killfist]

notes on advancement (specifically skills)

Yes karma cost are higher, basically on par with skills groups ... because well they are basically skill groups now .. also the same cost as attributes
Specializations and expertise cost are pretty cheap ... same cost as a spell

as for training times ... they are purely a suggestion and explicitly states that, so if you think they are too much cut them back

never understood that logic. Skill groups cost x. Attributes that are multiple skill groups rolled into 1 and have functions beyond the skills cost x as well.

[Hobbes]

as for training times ... they are purely a suggestion and explicitly states that, so if you think they are too much cut them back

Missions characters / GMs are stuck with RAW unless the Missions team makes a change.

And "Just Houserule it" isn't really a good answer for a lot of reasons.

And tracking training time on a spreadsheet isn't fun for 95% or so of the playerbase I'm guessing. 

[Banshee]

as for training times ... they are purely a suggestion and explicitly states that, so if you think they are too much cut them back

Missions characters / GMs are stuck with RAW unless the Missions team makes a change.

And "Just Houserule it" isn't really a good answer for a lot of reasons.

And tracking training time on a spreadsheet isn't fun for 95% or so of the playerbase I'm guessing.

exactly ... and since it is not a rule and just a suggestion then we as the Missions team will set those times so they are uniform

but house rules are the ultimate best answer because it should be about tailoring the experience to your group so everyone has fun not a debate session with a bunch of rules lawyers ... really that's all the Missions FAQ (bad name by the way so maybe I will get my way when we convert and get that changed) is just a collection of house rules specifically tailored to convention play

[Finstersang]

...Want to do some basic cinematic run to cover, while drawing a gun and firing off a shot. Nope can’t do it unless you are cybered or something...

I'm curious what makes you think this.

Major action to draw a weapon reduced to minor with the right gear. Move minor action. Take cover minor action. Shoot major action. That is 3 minors+1major. Normals get 2+1. Im sure if we go through the list of free actions and how they are now minors we can come up with more examples of this. Every previous edition free actions let you move and with a quick draw being out your pistol. 2 simples got you a shot and cover or if taking cover wasn’t an action 2 shots and you just moved into cover. If I wasn’t clear I’m not talking about your move taking you past a corner where you inherently have cover but moving into cover so you can see the enemies be in position to do things next round etc.

Will yelling things to teammates be a minor action now or is speaking some unknown non action thing.

Edit to add my somewhat tongue in cheek comment earlier was how many combat turns will it take to get out of a car. Minor action to unbuckle but if it’s wirelessly engaged you get a bonus moot action to unbuckle etc.

From what I´ve seen about the new Action Economy so far: Honestely, not too terrible. F.i., an unaugmented normie can do Move, Shoot, Cover OR Quickdraw, Shoot, Cover OR Move, Cover, Ready a big Gun OR ...

Yes, in all of these scenarios, you are one or two minors or even a major Action short for doing something really "cinematic". But guess what? Normal people don´t do cinematic stuff in firefight. But that´s something Streetsams and Adepts can still do.

And boi, they are not the big losers of the new action economy as many like to claim here. In 5E, un- (or lightly) augmented fighters often had a very good chance for a second IP: 5+ Reaction, 5+ Intuition, there you go: Unless your get injured, your second Pass is safe. The wired-up chars could get 3 or 4 IP for their Karma/Gear/Essence Investment, and if they flunked the Initiative roll, they even might have just 2 IP like most serious combatants. Yes, there´s much to do in one Initative Pass, but the most important thing is attacking, which you could do only once per IP. Spare simple/free Actions were usually used for stuff like aiming (which is basically just a part of the attack) or running.

So assuming a 5E wired Streetsam rolled a good Initiative Score and got himself 4 IP: That´s 4 Attacks for that combat round, provided that he doesn´t get tasered, injured etc. Meanwhile, an unaugmented ganger with a good base Initative could have an (almost) safe second IP, which equals 2 Attacks. That´s the same ratio as Streetsam with 2 additonal minors can get (as long as he has it´s weapons readied etc.). But wait, there´s more: In 5E, the streetsam couldn´t do 2 Attacks after another straight at the start of the Combat. After each of the first 2 Attacks, the ganger(s) have an oppoturnity to shoot back. The "rhythm" of the combat would be: Sam, Ganger, Sam, Ganger, Sam, Sam (end of Turn), while In 6E, it would be: Sam, Sam, Ganger (end of Turn), Sam, Sam, Ganger (end of Turn).

If the Sam already has his Assault rifle out and ready, he has two Attacks to do some serious damage right at the start of Combat. That´s a bigger difference than many of you might think.

And if you still think that wired characters get the short end of the stick in 6E, just one word: Blitz . With one point of Edge, every little goon could roll 5 ID and go all cinematic on your ass. That´s gone as well, an rightfully so. (Though I do think that another Edge option to buy 1 or max. 2 additional Minor Actions would be a good idea to give both wired and unwired chars more flexibility for one combat turn. Maybe that´s something for the Combat supplement?)