[TheWizurd]

I'm quite familiar with how bad premade / example characters tend to be.

Without the Core Rules to compare to, we simply do not have any indication how good or bad these dossiers are when examined outside the vacuum of the QSR.

I find it hard to believe that a second Initiative value for when interacting with machinery (such as the Rigger, or Decker) is considered "too complex" for the quick start rules.  It just doesn't instill me with confidence.

As far as vehicle stats in cards, if they exist in the box set, the Rigger player isn't told to take them.

Take the following cards to use during a game: Armor jacket, Renraku Sensei commlink, and MCT-Nissan Roto-Drone.

The character is 200K in debt to buy vehicles....  And the player doesn't even get to fantasize about using them....

She has a listing for gear and vehicles. Most of the cards are in the box set and when they aren't changes to existing cards are given for the new vehicle.

[Marcus]

Take the following cards to use during a game: Armor jacket, Renraku Sensei commlink, and MCT-Nissan Roto-Drone.

The character is 200K in debt to buy vehicles....  And the player doesn't even get to fantasize about using them....

What can I say? It's a hard knock life brother.

[Hephaestus]

I just want to give some props to Emu for being able to "weave down the dark, narrow alley between buildings" at 112 mph.

[Hephaestus]

To echo ISP, that fact that Riggers now have to split their ability scores to function well while jumped-in seems like a swift kick in the exhaust pipe.

Plus, I don't see any reason I would need to have an equivalent stat for body or strength when vehicles/drones have their own stat lines. The whole idea of playing a rigger is that you don't have to be the fastest/strongest/toughest, so long as your drones are.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

To echo ISP, that fact that Riggers now have to split their ability scores to function well while jumped-in seems like a swift kick in the exhaust pipe.

It's better than in 5e, where you still don't even know what attributes you need.

Plus, I don't see any reason I would need to have an equivalent stat for body or strength when vehicles/drones have their own stat lines. The whole idea of playing a rigger is that you don't have to be the fastest/strongest/toughest, so long as your drones are.

The QSR doesn't appear to touch on rules for virtual reality. Suffice to say, yes you still use the drone's stats for physical stuff.

[Hephaestus]

The QSR doesn't appear to touch on rules for virtual reality. Suffice to say, yes you still use the drone's stats for physical stuff.

Are we going to fist fight Deckers in VR now via our RCCs? Do we get to be matrix adepts???!?!?!?

Jokes aside, unless Riggers now have the ability to actually function in the matrix, I don't see any practical application for a body- or strength-equivalent stat in VR.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Jokes aside, unless Riggers now have the ability to actually function in the matrix, I don't see any practical application for a body- or strength-equivalent stat in VR.

Maybe there isn't one.

But as I said upthread, having a formal rule saying what attributes you use and don't use in VR is a benefit. Particularly so for Riggers, as now at least there's no confusion about what stats you use when. Remember, Jumping In is VR, so VR rules are very relevant to riggers.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Well I hope riggers can at least defend themselves in the matrix. I felt that was a big flaw in 5e.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Jokes aside, unless Riggers now have the ability to actually function in the matrix, I don't see any practical application for a body- or strength-equivalent stat in VR.

Maybe there isn't one.

But as I said upthread, having a formal rule saying what attributes you use and don't use in VR is a benefit. Particularly so for Riggers, as now at least there's no confusion about what stats you use when. Remember, Jumping In is VR, so VR rules are very relevant to riggers.

Also you are a rigger not a driver. Jump the eff in who cares about the other stats focus on those.

[Hephaestus]

Maybe there isn't one.

But as I said upthread, having a formal rule saying what attributes you use and don't use in VR is a benefit. Particularly so for Riggers, as now at least there's no confusion about what stats you use when. Remember, Jumping In is VR, so VR rules are very relevant to riggers.

True enough, but Riggers aren't in jumped-in just to play around in hot-sim VR. It's a very direct point-to-point connection with the device they are jumped into. So while I agree that knowing what equates to Agility and Reaction is good, I still don't see how Strength and Body mean anything in VR.

More to the point, if Riggers (and Deckers) are forced to split their ability points to be at all relevant on both sides of the datajack, then I foresee either some really bland character builds, or some VR-focused characters that will die if their RCC/cyberdeck falls on their toe.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

To echo ISP, that fact that Riggers now have to split their ability scores to function well while jumped-in seems like a swift kick in the exhaust pipe.

I'm glad you got that from my post, although that wasn't my intended point. 

I don't like Riggers getting shoe-horned into the "drone bunny" archetype.  (Even more reason why Technomancers make better Riggers than Riggers, but that is a digression.)

I don't mind the distinction between meatspace piloting and Matrix based piloting.  Admittedly, I would much rather go back to the meatspace linking of bodies and frag the Matrix based....  That toothpaste isn't getting back in the tube.

There is a metric s**t tonne of stuff to check out in the final Core Rules, but here are some of my concerns.

• The Control Rig won't give any mechanical benefit without being Jumped In.  On the surface, this makes sense.  The problem is that as I already hinted at, Street Sams and Adepts will be better meatspace pilots than Riggers - assuming their Piloting pools are within one or two dice of each other.
• There won't be any restriction to just using drones.  Again, perfectly reasonable on the surface.  And again, that means that anyone willing to spend the cash can be just as good at being a "drone bunny" as the Rigger.
• The Rigger will be restricted to being Jumped In to only one vehicle at a time.  Once again, this is perfectly reasonable on the surface.  The problem will arise because the Rigger is shoe-horned into being a drone bunny, and yet only really shines when Jumped In to a single vehicle - negating the drone bunny role they were shoe-horned into.

I will be the first to admit, that right now, all these concerns are unfounded.  Without the Core Rules, I can't know if it works anything like this.  These are the things I'm going to study closely to see if Shadowrun Sixth World learned anything from previous editions or is just repeating the mistakes of history.

EDITed:  Cleaned up remnant of split thread.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

My reply is in the other thread.

[Banshee]

Only because I am limited in how much detail I can go into prior to the release of the CRB ...

ALL jumped in actions use the mental attributes, so this confusion created by the QSR about having to split your attributes is unfounded. The QSR unfortunately does not do a very good job of portraying VR and it's effects on game play.

The Control Rig won't give any mechanical benefit without being Jumped In.  On the surface, this makes sense.  The problem is that as I already hinted at, Street Sams and Adepts will be better meatspace pilots than Riggers - assuming their Piloting pools are within one or two dice of each other.
There won't be any restriction to just using drones.  Again, perfectly reasonable on the surface.  And again, that means that anyone willing to spend the cash can be just as good at being a "drone bunny" as the Rigger.
The Rigger will be restricted to being Jumped In to only one vehicle at a time.  Once again, this is perfectly reasonable on the surface.  The problem will arise because the Rigger is shoe-horned into being a drone bunny, and yet only really shines when Jumped In to a single vehicle - negating the drone bunny role they were shoe-horned into.

1. you only benefir from a control while jumped in - yes, but that is what makes a rigger a rigger. anyone with a decent reaction and good pilot skill and be a good driver but they can do the things a rigger can do when jumped in. nothing new or changed there
2. no limit on drones - again nothing new or unchanged, anyone willing to invest can use a drone ... the only thing that separates a good "drone bunny" from the rest of the pack is a good RCC
3. Only jump into one vehicle - nothing new here either. but what they can do is be jumped into their primary vehicle doing all kinds of cool rigger stuff (or primary drone) then control several drones via their RCC

[Iron Serpent Prince]

The Control Rig won't give any mechanical benefit without being Jumped In.  On the surface, this makes sense.  The problem is that as I already hinted at, Street Sams and Adepts will be better meatspace pilots than Riggers - assuming their Piloting pools are within one or two dice of each other.
There won't be any restriction to just using drones.  Again, perfectly reasonable on the surface.  And again, that means that anyone willing to spend the cash can be just as good at being a "drone bunny" as the Rigger.
The Rigger will be restricted to being Jumped In to only one vehicle at a time.  Once again, this is perfectly reasonable on the surface.  The problem will arise because the Rigger is shoe-horned into being a drone bunny, and yet only really shines when Jumped In to a single vehicle - negating the drone bunny role they were shoe-horned into.

1. you only benefir from a control while jumped in - yes, but that is what makes a rigger a rigger. anyone with a decent reaction and good pilot skill and be a good driver but they can do the things a rigger can do when jumped in. nothing new or changed there
2. no limit on drones - again nothing new or unchanged, anyone willing to invest can use a drone ... the only thing that separates a good "drone bunny" from the rest of the pack is a good RCC
3. Only jump into one vehicle - nothing new here either. but what they can do is be jumped into their primary vehicle doing all kinds of cool rigger stuff (or primary drone) then control several drones via their RCC

Soo...

Shadowrun Sixth World learned absolutely nothing from previous editions, and Riggers are still the "Dump Archetype."

'Cause:  "That is the way it was always done, and we enjoy pissing on the Archetype!" 

Alright, the last line was a little unfair.  At least I know that Catalyst hasn't done anything to earn my money and can write off the whole edition.  Cyberpunk, here I come! 

[Banshee]

The Control Rig won't give any mechanical benefit without being Jumped In.  On the surface, this makes sense.  The problem is that as I already hinted at, Street Sams and Adepts will be better meatspace pilots than Riggers - assuming their Piloting pools are within one or two dice of each other.
There won't be any restriction to just using drones.  Again, perfectly reasonable on the surface.  And again, that means that anyone willing to spend the cash can be just as good at being a "drone bunny" as the Rigger.
The Rigger will be restricted to being Jumped In to only one vehicle at a time.  Once again, this is perfectly reasonable on the surface.  The problem will arise because the Rigger is shoe-horned into being a drone bunny, and yet only really shines when Jumped In to a single vehicle - negating the drone bunny role they were shoe-horned into.

1. you only benefir from a control while jumped in - yes, but that is what makes a rigger a rigger. anyone with a decent reaction and good pilot skill and be a good driver but they can do the things a rigger can do when jumped in. nothing new or changed there
2. no limit on drones - again nothing new or unchanged, anyone willing to invest can use a drone ... the only thing that separates a good "drone bunny" from the rest of the pack is a good RCC
3. Only jump into one vehicle - nothing new here either. but what they can do is be jumped into their primary vehicle doing all kinds of cool rigger stuff (or primary drone) then control several drones via their RCC

Soo...

Shadowrun Sixth World learned absolutely nothing from previous editions, and Riggers are still the "Dump Archetype."

'Cause:  "That is the way it was always done, and we enjoy pissing on the Archetype!" 

Alright, the last line was a little unfair.  At least I know that Catalyst hasn't done anything to earn my money and can write off the whole edition.  Cyberpunk, here I come! 

Well you and I have vastly differing opinions and experiences then regarding Riggers. ... all good though

We cleaned up some sloppy mechanics but didn't change the overall functionality because we didn't see the need or demand. The only complaint that came from the vast majority of the SR community was the confusion about how to do rigger things and not what can a rigger do.