[NCPtarmigan]

I'm of two minds about rank-less knowledge skills.

On one hand, ranks for knowledge skills don't add that much complexity, so I'm skeptical of how much benefit is really gained from this streamlining. In fact, arguably rank-less knowledge skills adds more complexity, because there are now different systems for active, language, and knowledge skills.

On the other hand, I don't think much is lost by going to binary, rank-less knowledge skills. Determining what kind of substantive knowledge having a particular knowledge skill does (or does not) encompass should be easy to establish through roleplaying. I've played plenty of games where there was no numerical stat for a given characteristic, so the players and the GM (usually me) established it through fiction. Asking players and GM to establish something as essential as, say, combat or magical skill through the fiction would be a drastic change. Asking them to establish background knowledge seems find to me.

I've played a lot of systems ranging from very numbers-driven to very narrative-driven, and I've had a lot of fun with both. I don't think one is "more" of an RPG than the other. I'm curious to see what kind of balance 6E strikes.

[tenchi2a]

I'm of two minds about rank-less knowledge skills.

On one hand, ranks for knowledge skills don't add that much complexity, so I'm skeptical of how much benefit is really gained from this streamlining. In fact, arguably rank-less knowledge skills adds more complexity, because there are now different systems for active, language, and knowledge skills.

On the other hand, I don't think much is lost by going to binary, rank-less knowledge skills. Determining what kind of substantive knowledge having a particular knowledge skill does (or does not) encompass should be easy to establish through roleplaying. I've played plenty of games where there was no numerical stat for a given characteristic, so the players and the GM (usually me) established it through fiction. Asking players and GM to establish something as essential as, say, combat or magical skill through the fiction would be a drastic change. Asking them to establish background knowledge seems find to me.

I've played a lot of systems ranging from very numbers-driven to very narrative-driven, and I've had a lot of fun with both. I don't think one is "more" of an RPG than the other. I'm curious to see what kind of balance 6E strikes.

To me, rankles skills are find if they are handled right.
1. They should have only narrative or limited streetwork value, ie. they get you to the guy/girl that can help you, and not they answer the key question of the adventure.
2. They are not easily obtained during character creation or play., ie. players can't just pull them out of their *** or have 20 of them.
3. They should not be any form of skill that can be substituted for an active skill any anyway (Investigation, Perception, Negotiation, etc.).
4. They should not be involved in any type of interaction that can bring a group to blows or put the group in a in a tight spot (Language during a foreign negotiation).

[Hephaestus]

After reading the description of knowledge skills and language skills, I think it would have made more sense if the loose tiers (Basic --> Specialist --> Expert --> Native) applied to knowledge skills as well. Maybe swap the "Native" level for something like "Savant" when it comes to knowledge?

If you have more significantly more knowledge in a particular field than someone else, then you should get an advantage over someone who doesn't. And it doesn't have to be brain surgery. It could be someone with an Expert-level knowledge of law could gain an advantage over a corrupt cop with only a Basic understanding. It could be your team's Face chatting it up at an antiquities auction to try and blend in, only to to be publicly humiliated by someone with a Savant-level knowledge of whatever it was they were talking about.

The way it's being talked about now, it seems like there are going to be more instances where players feel cheated because their knowledge skill doesn't cover things it should, and also instances players "knowledge-begging" to justify getting some extra dice.

[BeCareful]

For what it's worth, I've been asking my GM who does 5th Ed to award Knowledge-Only Bonus Karma. The idea being, we get Knowledge-Only Bonus Karma at chargen to avoid the situation of, "I could put points into either Musical Genres/History or Guns/Perception", so why not allow that afterwards?

The way 6th looks like it'll be going, there won't need to be a house rule for that. True, making knowledge skills binary means there's no way to differentiate how knowledgeable you are about a thing, but it also means that you won't have to worry about the GM not being legally allowed to tell you something handy because you, with your Masters of Art History, glitched your Knowledge test, ran out of Edge (or didn't want to spend it on a Knowledge test), and couldn't meet the threshold.

"You have Relevant Skill: here's Relevant Info" seems a bit simplistic, but it also means you'll always be able to get a bit of extra stuff because of something your character knows.

[kyoto kid]

Do not like. I have built and many of my players have built characters who are experts on subjects but didn’t want to work under the confines of a Corp. and used running as a way to fund their research.

I don’t like the reasoning I’m Seeing either. The only thing that matters is how it effects the game?  Nope, I’m roleplaying a character who may have attributes and skills of no relevance to the game. It’s about having the ability to make a complete character not a complete game device. It’s a rpg not a board game.

...totally in agreement.

As an example my Jack of all Trades and Demolitions Expert Leela is something of a "skill monkey".

Over time she has accumulated a fairly extensive list of knowledge skills. Some which relate to what she encountered during missions she had been on, some to her primary "profession" as a demolitions expert, some from her background as a former performer and member of a resistance cell, some that give her better insight, and some that just catch her interest.

As she has accumulated quite an array of active skills, I also put Karma into improving or adding new knowledge skills, particularly if she feels it might be a good idea to know about something she may encounter again on a future job. 

To just say she "has" these skills without any structure or rating seems a bit arbitrary, and in away (at least to myself) feels a bit like cheating.

Personally, I miss the mechanic from 3E that allows knowledge skills which assist active skills (like say structural dynamics or architecture when assessing a building for setting up demolitions charges) that allows one to add 1 success to the test for every two successes on the related knowledge skill.  That made knowledge skills a lot more useful.

[FastJack]

Let's look at some Prime Runners to see how they'll change in 6E (grabbed stats from Street Legends): 

The Smiling Bandit
Active Skills: Close Combat skill group 3, Computer (Edit) 6 (+2), Cybercombat 5, Data Search (Technical Journals) 6 (+2), Disguise 3, Dodge 3, Electronic Warfare (Encryption) 6 (+2), Firearms skill group 4, Hacking (Sniffer) 6 (+2), Hardware 5, Industrial Mechanic 4, Influence skill group 5, Perception 6, Software (Defensive Utilities) 6 (+2)
Knowledge Skills: Genetic Engineering 6, Universal Omnitech 4, Cybertechnology 4, Manatech 3, Biotech 5

Slamm-0!
Active Skills: Automatics 3, Clubs 3, Con 2, Cyber Combat 5 (+2), Dodge 4, Driving 1, Electronic Warfare 5 (+2), Electronics skill group 4 (+2), Etiquette (Matrix) 5 (+2), First Aid 1 (+1), Hacking 6 (+2), Intimidation 2, Leadership 2, Negotiation 5, Perception 5 (+1)
Knowledge Skills: Anarchist Groups 5, Area (Redmond Barrens) 6, Computer System Security Techniques 4, Famous Hackers/Deckers 3, Financial Systems 3, Pro-Meta Groups 4, Secret Matrix Hacker Chatrooms 6

Damien Knight
Active Skills: Armorer 5 ( , Athletics skill group 4, Biotech skill group 4 (7), Close Combat skill group 6, Cracking skill group 6 (9), Diving 3, Dodge 6, Electronics skill group 6 (9), Exotic Ranged Weapon (Laser Weapons) 6, Firearms skill group 6, Gunnery 3, Heavy Weapons 3, Influence skill group 6, Intimidation 5, Parachuting 3, Perception 6 (12), Pilot Aerospace 3, Pilot Aircraft 3, Pilot Anthroform 3, Pilot Ground Craft 4, Pilot Watercraft 3, Stealth skill group 4 (7), Throwing Weapons 3
Knowledge Skills: Ares Macrotechnology 6, Business 6, Chess (Endgame) 6 (+2), Computer Theory 5, Corporate Politics 6, Firearms Design 5, Firearms History 5, German 3, Economics 5, History 5, Japanese 5, Megacorp Law 5, Military 6, Security Companies (Knight Errant) 6 (+2), Security Design 5, Security Procedures 5, Spanish 5, UCAS Politics 6

How would they use their skills in 5th Edition vs. 6th Edition?

[Shinobi Killfist]

Since those prime runners seem to cap skills at 6 im guessing 4e stats. So they’d have the same knowledge skills but areas they were world class in vs professional isn’t differentiated. As an example with Knight him being the type of guy who could play chess with a great dragon isn’t represented any more than if rando smart guy just picked up chess last session. 

[FastJack]

Since those prime runners seem to cap skills at 6 im guessing 4e stats. So they’d have the same knowledge skills but areas they were world class in vs professional isn’t differentiated. As an example with Knight him being the type of guy who could play chess with a great dragon isn’t represented any more than if rando smart guy just picked up chess last session. 

Sorry, I'm asking how the tests would go with the actual rules, not on what they might represent.

As for chess, it's not hard to learn, and I can see some "rando" with a high logic picking up the skill and beating Damien Knight. Just like regular people become grand masters in the real world. One of the reasons Damien usually wins at chess is due to a high natural logic and augmentations to increase it higher.

[Moonshine Fox]

Let's look at some Prime Runners to see how they'll change in 6E (grabbed stats from Street Legends): 

How would they use their skills in 5th Edition vs. 6th Edition?

Well, at the very least they’ll probably have access to more knowledge skills so Slamm-o can grab some ‘baseball’ and ‘snarky jokes’ knowledge skills 

[Moonshine Fox]

Since those prime runners seem to cap skills at 6 im guessing 4e stats. So they’d have the same knowledge skills but areas they were world class in vs professional isn’t differentiated. As an example with Knight him being the type of guy who could play chess with a great dragon isn’t represented any more than if rando smart guy just picked up chess last session.

I mean, under the current rules who knows more about magic: Street Shaman with Logic 1 and Magic background 6, or a decker with Logic 6 and Magic Background of 1? Pure Mechanics, they both know the same by rolling dice pools of 7.

So instead you decide who knows more based on the skill rating, which is a role play decision based on the points, but even that ignores that the shaman would understand magic on a far deeper level then a decker since he lives in it daily, while the decker can only know secondhand information.

With what six is proposing is that the choice be fully roleplay, so even if the decker had an equal or higher rating, you can emphasize the different ways they know the subject, the decker being the facts and formula of spells and the shaman the feel and flow of spirits and mana.

It also ( depending upon how the skills are distributed a character creation) lets lower Int/Log characters like that shaman have access to other knowledge skills relevant to their background but little mechanical use, such as soup kitchen locations, combat biking leagues, or punk metal lyrics.

[FastJack]

With the new system the Magic background skill would add two anytime it applies to the situation.

"Geek the mage guard!"

If you have Magic, then you get a +2 to spot which of the CorpSec officers looks like a mage.

[incrdbil]

...
I'm stunned anyone can think is remotely acceptable.

First Aid: Training, level of ability, easily comparable. Who do you want working on your wounds? The guy with a lot more skill.


Nuclear physics? thats a toss up. Everyone in the world  who has that knowledge is about the same.  Doesn't matter who you talk to.
...

I give up.  I was going to respond but I'm done trying to change made-up minds.

I feel the same way about dealing with apologists for lazy writing.

[Voran]

I worked on the notion that Runners developed skills, especially in knowledge, in an eclectic and/or tacit experience kind of way.  Different approaches of development to ultimately a same level of understanding.

Your runner with Gang knowledge might have gained that in several ways.  Maybe they lived street.  Maybe they lived as a cop.  Maybe they did a comparative analysis of the sociological conditions associated with disenfranchisement as it relates to locked upward mobility and lateral options.  And then what would be different is that 1st guy has Etiquette - street gangs, 2nd has cops 3 has academics....or something like that.

Knowledge (and skills in general) in 5e and before rarely, if at all, dealt with the reality that skills and knowledge fade and become obsolete in cases if you don't keep up with them.  Oh you have a knowledge 5 rating from stuff relevant 25 years ago? Yeah that's only a 2 now if you don't pay these upkeep costs.  I mean literally for my profession (social work) for license stuff they can decertify you if you don't keep up with your CEUs (continuing education units)

And talking about Social Work as a knowledge, there probably aren't many of us with too high a base Social Work knowledge.  Why? Because at higher levels you specialize.  Functionally, knowledge wise, I'd say a BSW "social work" knowledge isn't that different from an MSW "social work" knowledge, but the MSW guy has more depth in multiple knowledge areas (theoretically, I've met MSW that I'm amazed even made it out of school....)  I can tell you basic principle stuff re: Gerontology field as it relates to SW, or some of the substance abuse stuff, but my stuff was more child/adolescent mental health, early childhood, CWS, etc.  The guys that concentrate on Macro tier SW have different knowledge sets than those that work Front Line field.

anyway

I think we can all agree the skill system in ANY rpg isn't 'realistic' and shouldn't be.  The trade off in hyperspecificity to try and get things as accurate as possible....probably doesn't matter.   

[David Chart]

I feel the same way about dealing with apologists for lazy writing.

There is nothing lazy about the decision to go with binary knowledge skills. Given that valued skills already exist in the game, you actually have to do more writing to have binary knowledge skills than to have valued ones. If you want valued ones, you can just say "And there are knowledge skills, which work like active skills, based on Intuition or Logic. Make up some skill names for your characters." And, come to think of it, previous editions pretty much did. If you want binary knowledge skills, you have to explain how they work, which means more writing, and more effort.

You can certainly disagree with the design choice, but calling the writers "lazy" is obviously unjustified.

[kyoto kid]

With the new system the Magic background skill would add two anytime it applies to the situation.

"Geek the mage guard!"

If you have Magic, then you get a +2 to spot which of the CorpSec officers looks like a mage.

...OK so let's take my Jack of all Trades character Leela (who has the quality), a mundane who's backstory is that she was a member of a resistance cell in an occupied nation and thus had to fill a number of different roles like armed combat, demolitions, infiltration, driving, and field medic.  What "advantages" would she get, or would she get any?