[Iron Serpent Prince]

That is not really an issue. The two main offenders here are that:

1. Vision magnification and imaging scope are not aligned.
2. Imaging Scope may be used at Close and Near range.

Fix that and imaging scopes will be fine.

Surely you are not looking for realism in 6th?

We have been told repeatedly that Shadowrun has never been about realism, and that it has no place here. [/sarcasm]

The bottom line is that the absolute last thing the armor situation needed was to be further diminished by a resource that is trivial to acquire.

Truth

[Shinobi Killfist]

That is not really an issue. The two main offenders here are that:

1. Vision magnification and imaging scope are not aligned.
2. Imaging Scope may be used at Close and Near range.

Fix that and imaging scopes will be fine.

Surely you are not looking for realism in 6th?

We have been told repeatedly that Shadowrun has never been about realism, and that it has no place here. [/sarcasm]

The bottom line is that the absolute last thing the armor situation needed was to be further diminished by a resource that is trivial to acquire.

Truth

The worlds got magic hence it’s not realistic comments were legion. Which is why people switched to using verisimilitude to avoid that stuff.

Given that armor is ratings like 1-4 I doubt it would change much to give it as soak. You take 2 instead of 3 isn’t a huge change.

[Xenon]

The bottom line is that the absolute last thing the armor situation needed was to be further diminished by a resource that is trivial to acquire.

Everything comes with a price.

In this case you are basically trading a potential edge to remove a Minor Action for your opponent.

In most situations I would say that this is a pretty Good trade-off ;-)


Also,
1. If you are within his optimal range category then odds are you would not get a tactical advantage while being hit anyway (at this range the attacker often get a base AR of 10-12 or so, not counting bonuses from smartgun systems or vision magnifications).
2. You might secure your two edge from other sources, anyway


Personally I like the paper - rock - scissors tactical element that the new edge mechanic brings to the table and I hope that they will expand on this moving forward. Also like that you get to reap the reward of your tactical play by frequently executing small 'hero' actions. Can't wait to see how it plays out for real.

Surely you are not looking for realism in 6th?

I really don't want Shadowrun to be a real life simulator.

I am perfectly fine with Hollywood Realism.
Rule of Cool always goes before realism. Every. Single. Time.

If SR6 let me tell a good story that the players enjoy then I would say the edition is a success.
So far it seem very promising.
Sure the book have a few copy pasta mistakes and a few corner cases that they didn't think about, but the framework is solid and it seems to work and it seem to solve many of the issues that many of us saw in the older editions.


In this case it just make perfect sense that Vision Magnification have a bonus when you take shots at Medium, Far and Extreme range (and that it does not add anything Close or Near distance). It also make perfect sense that Imaging Scope comes pre-installed with the Vision Magnification enhancement which mean it should inherit the exact same benefit (and limitations).

This is probably just a thing they accidentally missed in the conversion and I am confident they are discussing it internally and that they will fix it in an upcoming errata.

[Lormyr]

Can you please stop looking at things in vacuum

I do not believe I am, nor do I appreciate that assumption. I'll explain further below.

Everything comes with a price.

In this case you are basically trading a potential edge to remove a Minor Action for your opponent.

In most situations I would say that this is a pretty Good trade-off ;-)

Most everything, sure. But those prices vary significantly. Lets leave your vacuum for a moment, and consider the following scenarios.

1). Human with body 3, armor jacket vs. sniper.

In this scenario, I agree with you 100%. His body and armor wasn't going to help him anyhow, the scope is irrelevant. Forcing the attacker to spend his minor action aiming is, by itself, a better trade than the victim gaining an edge. That minor action cost may or may not be worth it, depending on the other scenarios in the combat, though. Did he lose a second attack to aim? Did he need those additional actions to dodge or take cover? Lot of variables, but the likely outcome is as you assessed.

2). Big troll body 10, titanium bone lacing, 2 cyberlimbs, full body armor with helmet, final DR 23 vs. sniper.

In this scenario, I fully disagree with you on all points. The troll spent significant resources in essence and money to ensure he would generate edge when attacked. Having that trumped by a chump change trinket and a minor action is not only unbalanced, it's insulting. Again, the cost of that minor action is subjective based on additional circumstances present, but it is almost certainly in favor of the sniper. Not really because of the single point of edge, but because the troll spent his character generation resources on something that did nothing for him, while you sniper spent his on other things that function for him appropriately.

While you look at it as edge vs. minor action, I look at is as 3.5 points of essence and 100,000 nuyen vs. chump change and a minor action.

All of these figures are still beside the point of the elements you cannot mathematically measure, such as uninspired, unfun, unbalanced, nonsensical, ect.

1. If you are within his optimal range category then odds are you would not get a tactical advantage while being hit anyway (at this range the attacker often get a base AR of 10-12 or so, not counting bonuses from smartgun systems or vision magnifications).

Odds based on what? Literally all it takes to deny the vast majority of attackers (with AR 14 being near top end before add ons) edge gain on attack is a max body dwarf, ork, or troll in an armored jacket. That is before even trying.

2. You might secure your two edge from other sources, anyway

Sure, you're not wrong there. But that hardly excuses the armor AR/DR system from needing to function well because you can get it from other parts of the rules.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

I am perfectly fine with Hollywood Realism.

Oh hell.  Really?!??

Then you are good with dry wall and veneered 1/4" plywood being bulletproof, and thermographic vision working through walls....  Ugh.

[KatoHearts]

Remember it's one minor action one turn. So long as you keep attacking you don't need to take aim again.

[Xenon]

1. If you are within his optimal range category then odds are you would not get a tactical advantage while being hit anyway (at this range the attacker often get a base AR of 10-12 or so, not counting bonuses from smartgun systems or vision magnifications).

Odds based on what? Literally all it takes to deny the vast majority of attackers (with AR 14 being near top end before add ons) edge gain on attack is a max body dwarf, ork, or troll in an armored jacket. That is before even trying.

I am not talking about denying the attacker from gaining edge.

With AR 14 (your numbers) the defender would need DR 18+ to qualify for edge.
A max body dwarf with an armor jacket (your scenario) only have DR 11.
Even with Cover IV the dwarf only get up to DV 15, which is still not enough to gain an edge.

Oh hell.  Really?!??

Yes, really.

It make for a far more cooler scene if your target is being being thrown backwards through the window on the 19th floor when you shoot him point blank with your shotgun (Hollywood Realism) than if he just fall to the floor like a sack of potatoes (Real Life).

It is far more cooler if the augmented troll can punch through brick walls (Hollywood Realism) than if he would just break every bone in his fist (Real Life)

Or when your rigger pulls something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU9Ad-8kMuM&t=96 or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EalGgwgi1iM&t=16

Remember it's one minor action one turn. So long as you keep attacking you don't need to take aim again.

What gave you that idea?

I am pretty sure that if you take a few Take Aim actions then the positive dice pool bonus will not carry over to all your attack actions until end of the whole combat scene.

[FastJack]

Remember it's one minor action one turn. So long as you keep attacking you don't need to take aim again.

What gave you that idea?

I am pretty sure that if you take a few Take Aim actions then the positive dice pool bonus will not carry over to all your attack actions until end of the whole combat scene.

Yeah, the way it's written, you can keep using Take Aim each round and the bonus only increases if you don't use it. So if you do three rounds with Take Aim and no Attack, then you'll get to Attack with an +3 bonus. However, if you use the bonus, you're back to zero and need to Take Aim again to start over. And if you skip a round and don't use a Take Aim or Attack action, the bonus goes away too.

[Lormyr]

I am not talking about denying the attacker from gaining edge.

Fair enough, other way around then. It is much easier to build a character with a high DR than AR, for the simple fact that there are many more options that add to DR than AR. You can basically get about weapon range AR +6 (laser sight, smartgun, and apds) for an AR focused character, while a DR focused one will be body + armor rating + anywhere from +10 (bone lacing, 2 cyber limbs, dermal plating) to +16 (increase body, mystic armor, armor spell, combat sense spell) for a decked out mystic adept. Neither of those lists are comprehensive, but it highlights the mathematical progression in which DR wins.

My point is thus:

1). DR stacks higher than AR. Stacking DR is also significantly more costly than stacking AR. The former takes some combination of essence, karma, power points, spell slots, or a ton of nuyen. The later costs a bee's dick of nuyen and one minor action.

2). Because of the resource difference, letting the bee's dick investment nullify the significant, limited resource investment is absurd for game balance, and more than a little insulting to the person who invested those limited resources.

Now, will this matter to many characters? Hell if I know, I don't presume to know how the "average" gamer plays. What I do know is that the imaging scope being able to deny edge in the first place shouldn't even be an option.

[Marcus]

Did you actually need further proof they just want all characters to walk around in bikinis?
I mean it's been clear that armor useless sense like a week after announcement? How is this a surprise?

Honestly Lor, just make a character that wears a bikini or mankini or whatever ever you like, and packs around a bag of grenades and own everything in 6e.
It's not complicated.

[Lormyr]

Honestly Lor, just make a character that wears a bikini or mankini or whatever ever you like, and packs around a bag of grenades and own everything in 6e.
It's not complicated.

Xenon triggered me with that vacuum comment, I have to sink my teeth now.

This is the thing. Anyone can have an opinion about the system. Like or dislike, and why, it's all totally valid. I've got nothing to say to someone stating "my personal preference is".

When they start arguing with the math is what grates me, though. You can't say that "odds are you won't get defensive edge when being attacked in optimal range anyways" as fact or excuse for an unbalanced, badly designed decision. Sometimes that statement is true, sure, but there are builds where that statement cannot be mathematically possible because DR scales much higher than AR on extreme builds.

[Xenon]

Xenon triggered me with that vacuum comment

(I removed that part from my post while you were typing your reply, sorry you had to see it... it came out wrong)


I agree that Imaging Scope should have another effect.

The effect it have right now doesn't really benefit sniper rifles anyway (except maybe if the target went great length to super boost their DV, but in that case the target should probably have a chance to gain an edge from that anyway).

There are two situations where an Imaging device make a really big difference with the effect and with its current limitations.

1. Using unwieldy long weapons (such as sniper rifles, machine guns, auto cannons and to some extent also assault rifles) at 0-3 meters normally almost automatically grant edge to the defender. But for some reason you are allowed to take aim with an imaging device at melee range and by doing this you deny the defender from gaining edge while you use your unwieldy long arm against them. This needs to change no matter. Should not be possible to gain any advantage at all by using an imaging scope at close or medium range.

2. Where the effect of Imaging Scope have a real impact right now is at Extreme range with weapons that have really low AR at this range category (such as; AK-97, Ares Alpha, Cold M23, FN-HAR, Yamaha Raiden, and Ingram Valiant - none of which you normally associate with scopes and extreme range). Instead of barely being useful to attack with at extreme range and where the defender almost always would gain an edge if you did you now prevent the defender from gaining edge. Even if you only have an AR of 1. I don't think this is intended.



If we get to remake the effect of an imaging scope then maybe something like this could be used:

Extreme: At this range category you cannot take an Attack Action unless you benefit from an imaging scope (or similar magnification effect).

Imaging Scope: The classic top-mounted scope that includes a micro camera and vision magnification, along with a Capacity of 3 for additional vision enhancements (p. 275). Attachment or removal takes only a Minor Action. The imaging scope allows attacks to be taken at the Extreme range and Attack Ratings for Medium, Far, and Extreme ranges are increased by 2, assuming the attack being used has a non-zero Attack Rating in those categories. The Take Aim Minor Action must be used in order to gain the benefits of an imaging scope, though the dice pool bonus from that action is not gained for the first action of use.
Wireless bonus: The scope’s “line of sight” can be shared, allowing you to share what your scope sees with your team (and yourself if you’re using it to look around a corner).

[Lormyr]

(I removed that part from my post while you were typing your reply, sorry you had to see it... it came out wrong)

Don't be sorry. The source of all strength is forged through conflict, so I welcome your criticism as an opportunity to harden my resolve or be proven wrong and learn something.

I pretty much agree with most of what else you said.

[Hephaestus]

Imaging Scope: The classic top-mounted scope that includes a micro camera and vision magnification, along with a Capacity of 3 for additional vision enhancements (p. 275). Attachment or removal takes only a Minor Action. The imaging scope allows attacks to be taken at the Extreme range and Attack Ratings for Medium, Far, and Extreme ranges are increased by 2, assuming the attack being used has a non-zero Attack Rating in those categories. The Take Aim Minor Action must be used in order to gain the benefits of an imaging scope, though the dice pool bonus from that action is not gained for the first action of use.
Wireless bonus: The scope’s “line of sight” can be shared, allowing you to share what your scope sees with your team (and yourself if you’re using it to look around a corner).

I like the direction you're going, but I would amend it to say you get -3/-1/+2/+2/+2 to your AR, assuming the weapon can use the range increment. That way you get a bonus to AR in the ranges where scopes matter, and are put at a disadvantage up close.

[Xenon]

Sniper rifles only have between AR 1-3 or so at Close range (depending on model). You are already put at disadvantage up close. Not sure what another -3 to that would accomplish besides complicate things as AR would drop to zero and you would suddenly be unable to fire at all (which would feel strange). With AR ~2 you only need DR 6 to gain an edge as defender (body 3 and a jacket give you DR 7).

And on longer ranges they don't really need a bonus to AR (they have base AR between 11 and 14 on Far and Extreme ranges as is), I just tossed it in there for clarity because that is the bonus you get anyway from the Visual Magnification enhancement that is included into the imaging scope....


The Visual Magnification enhancement = Attack Ratings for Medium, Far, and Extreme ranges are increased by 2, assuming the attack being used has a non-zero Attack Rating in those categories and that you use a take aim action where the first action don't give you a positive dice pool modifier. It also allow you to take shots at extreme range to begin with.

The built-in Micro camera = The scope’s “line of sight” can be shared, allowing you to share what your scope sees with your team (and yourself if you’re using it to look around a corner).

Imaging scope specific bonus = No bonus at all. It will basically just become an imaging device. You might as well have visual magnification in your goggles or cybereyes. It is just an alternative source that give you visual magnification (and the capacity for some additional visual enhancements).