[Shinobi Killfist]

Okay if i'm reading this right, the Barrier spells create a 2 meter by 2 meter wall which can be boosted in size by Amps.  I guess they can't be moved which is kind of disappointing and less fun but that is how I'm reading it. I wish the spells included some math because if someone is making a dome or something out if that size(I'm assuming it doesn't have to just be a flat wall, it just does not say either way) because I'm terrible at Geometry.  They seem clunkier and more difficult to use. Personally I think it should be able to be a sphere pretty easily(ie put math in the spell) and be able to move with the team, but that's partly just so it matches the fiction and setting.  Those are mainly nitpicks about not liking the feel of the spells in the new edition.

But my main issue is the strength.  Magic rating+hits.  That actually might work for the mana version, its hard to say without seeing astral entities in a campaign but it seems big.  A mage trying to force his way past a relatively normal rating 10 barrier would be rolling against 20 dice. But on the physical barrier side a fairly basic mage will fairly routinely be having a barrier 10 or 11 up.  If I'm reading the rules right that stops everything up to assault rifles cold(oddly APDS doesn't help but explosive does), a slightly min maxed mage or a slightly lucky roll might get the barrier up to 14 or 15 which is pretty much stopping every gun in the game cold. Am I reading shooting through barriers wrong?  If not maybe it should be 1/2 magic base like indirect damage spells?  Its not a huge swing but knocking 3 off the base shifts it so you are stopping pistols with the normal mage but big guns blow through it and you have to min max to start stopping assault rifles.

[markelphoenix]

Okay if i'm reading this right, the Barrier spells create a 2 meter by 2 meter wall which can be boosted in size by Amps.  I guess they can't be moved which is kind of disappointing and less fun but that is how I'm reading it. I wish the spells included some math because if someone is making a dome or something out if that size(I'm assuming it doesn't have to just be a flat wall, it just does not say either way) because I'm terrible at Geometry.  They seem clunkier and more difficult to use. Personally I think it should be able to be a sphere pretty easily(ie put math in the spell) and be able to move with the team, but that's partly just so it matches the fiction and setting.  Those are mainly nitpicks about not liking the feel of the spells in the new edition.

But my main issue is the strength.  Magic rating+hits.  That actually might work for the mana version, its hard to say without seeing astral entities in a campaign but it seems big.  A mage trying to force his way past a relatively normal rating 10 barrier would be rolling against 20 dice. But on the physical barrier side a fairly basic mage will fairly routinely be having a barrier 10 or 11 up.  If I'm reading the rules right that stops everything up to assault rifles cold(oddly APDS doesn't help but explosive does), a slightly min maxed mage or a slightly lucky roll might get the barrier up to 14 or 15 which is pretty much stopping every gun in the game cold. Am I reading shooting through barriers wrong?  If not maybe it should be 1/2 magic base like indirect damage spells?  Its not a huge swing but knocking 3 off the base shifts it so you are stopping pistols with the normal mage but big guns blow through it and you have to min max to start stopping assault rifles.

This is why I was going to suggest Barrier as a Grenade counter. Given the OP nature of Grenades, being able to plop a barrier over it, or using it to block the blast in the direction of the group helps mitigate the pain.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I’d rather they just fix grenades. As this working as a counter to them still leaves it as too powerful vs guns.

For grenades my opinion is they should change it so you keep the scatter roll but 1/2 the damage at each range category. Make it an opposed test. Net successes on hit increase the damage. Net successes on defense and you are considered effectively one range category further out than where the grenade actually landed. Remove penalties to defense based on range from grenade.

[markelphoenix]

I’d rather they just fix grenades. As this working as a counter to them still leaves it as too powerful vs guns.

For grenades my opinion is they should change it so you keep the scatter roll but 1/2 the damage at each range category. Make it an opposed test. Net successes on hit increase the damage. Net successes on defense and you are considered effectively one range category further out than where the grenade actually landed. Remove penalties to defense based on range from grenade.

Speaking of, can't a runner technically throw the grenade back?

[Shinobi Killfist]

Maybe with a big edge move but grenades can be set to impact.

[Lormyr]

You aren't reading it wrong, and I personally think it is a good thing. Bullets going throw barriers and just taking 1 damage off the top in 5e was one of the rules that annoyed me most in that system. I think of it like trying to chop a tree down with a machine gun. Can you do it? Sure. Is it an efficient tool for the task? Hell no.

I find the barrier rules in 6e to be solid, which besides the matrix is one of the few phrases I can freely sing. The group in my playtest had to deal with a lot of them.

[markelphoenix]

You aren't reading it wrong, and I personally think it is a good thing. Bullets going throw barriers and just taking 1 damage off the top in 5e was one of the rules that annoyed me most in that system. I think of it like trying to chop a tree down with a machine gun. Can you do it? Sure. Is it an efficient tool for the task? Hell no.

I find the barrier rules in 6e to be solid, which besides the matrix is one of the few phrases I can freely sing. The group in my playtest had to deal with a lot of them.

Code: [Select]

"...barrier rules in 6e to be solid..."

"...barrier rules in 6e to be solid..."


Tell me this was intended and not a punny coincidence.

[Shinobi Killfist]

You aren't reading it wrong, and I personally think it is a good thing. Bullets going throw barriers and just taking 1 damage off the top in 5e was one of the rules that annoyed me most in that system. I think of it like trying to chop a tree down with a machine gun. Can you do it? Sure. Is it an efficient tool for the task? Hell no.

I find the barrier rules in 6e to be solid, which besides the matrix is one of the few phrases I can freely sing. The group in my playtest had to deal with a lot of them.

I’m actually fine with the barrier rules in general but it feels these spells get to indestructible too quick.

I had a similar issue with the 5e spells they just were a fancy armor spell. I kind of think this spell needs to split the difference a bit. A chance to stop bullets cold but doesn’t get to stopping all fire with a decent roll.

[sigfriedmcwild]

Just because I felt like doing some maths, a Magic 6, Sorcery 6 caster has:
99% chance of getting 1 hit: structure 7 barrier stops all weapons with damage 4 or less (vast majority of the weapons in the book)
82% chance of getting 3 hits: structure 9 barrier stops all weapons with damage 5 or less (there go the rifles)
37% chance of getting 5 hits: structure 11 barrier stops all weapons with damage 6 or less (there go the monofilament whip, the defiance super shock, and the rpk hmg)

But hey, if you are carrying a panther xxl, they only have a 6.6% chance of completely stopping that, yay!

Unless they spend edge... lets assume they have 3 edge
~100% chance of getting 1 hit: structure 7 barrier stops all weapons with damage 4 or less (vast majority of the weapons in the book)
93% chance of getting 3 hits: structure 9 barrier stops all weapons with damage 5 or less (there go the rifles)
67% chance of getting 5 hits: structure 11 barrier stops all weapons with damage 6 or less (there go the monofilament whip, the defiance super shock, and the rpk hmg)
30% chance of getting 7 hits: structure 13 barrier stops all weapons with damage 7 or less (and now your panther is useless)

(edit: corrected chance for 1 hit)

[Shinobi Killfist]

Thanks for the math. That’s the problem with all or nothing design it’s hard to nail the math.

[sigfriedmcwild]

Shifting the structure rating to Magic/2+net hits may be better, let's see (for the same 6/6 mage as above):
99% chance of getting 1 hit: structure 4 barrier stops all weapons with damage 2 or less (light pistols and the like)
95% chance of getting 2 hits: structure 5 barrier stops all weapons with damage 3 or less (heavy pistols)
61% chance of getting 4 hits: structure 7 barrier stops all weapons with damage 4 or less (shotguns, assault rifles)
18% chance of getting 6 hits: structure 9 barrier stops all weapons with damage 5 or less (rifles)

Let's take a look at a 5/5 Lonestar Combat Mage (pool drops to 10, they still get +3 structure from magic, because of rounding up)
98% chance of getting 1 hit: structure 4 barrier
90% chance of getting 2 hits: structure 5 barrier
44% chance of getting 4 hits: structure 7 barrier
7.7% chance of getting 6 hits: structure 9 barrier

This seems reasonable still

For the lolz let's also look at a 2/2 Terrafirst! Shaman (professional rating 0, pool is 4, +1 structure from magic)
80% chance of getting 1 hit: structure 2 barrier, will soak 1 damage off every attack
41% chance of getting 2 hits: structure 3 barrier, will stop damage 2 weapons
1.2% chance of getting 4 hits: structure 5 barrier, will stop damage 3 weapons

Which, you know, for one of the least threatening adveraries in the book isn't half bad.
Especially when you remember that that structure 3 barrier is not just stopping light pistols, but is also taking 2DV away from every other weapon (making heavy pistols DV1 and rifles DV2 or 3), so I think I'll be running with this rule at my table.

[Bishophawk]

But dont barriers work both ways? So your also stopping your team from killing the other guys also?

[markelphoenix]

But dont barriers work both ways? So your also stopping your team from killing the other guys also?

This guy gets it. Also, anything a player can use, the opposing force can use as well.

[markelphoenix]

Also, in the general barriers section (all barriers, not just magical, pg 111), this gives me fits:
 "Subtract half the Structure rating (rounded up) from the incoming unmodified damage. Anything left over gets the extra hits from the Attack Test and needs to be resisted."

So, is this saying, if you're completely behind a barrier (not taking cover, but using it as a barrier), then the roll is to
1) Attack you using fool dicepool of selected firearm skill (gather the dice)
2) Compare your DR against enemies AR (unmodified by wall given not taking Cover?)
3) Roll and compare defense hits vs attack hits
4) Subtract damage = to barrier rating/2
5) THEN scale damage based upon net hits over the defense test

If this is the case, what about the 0 DV scenario? Could you use a Hold Out pistol against a rating 20 barrier, not caring that it will scale the DV to 0, knowing that your net hits are what will matter on dealing the damage?

Alternatively, is this implicitly saying that 0 DV means the entire attack is nulled and then don't scale it up after based on net hits?

[Michael Chandra]

If we look at the Barrier rules on page 112, at base damage > Structure/2 we start putting actual holes (2cm+ instead of 1cm or nothing) into the barrier. So the implication would be that with 0 DV or less, the hole is not substantial enough for the weapon to pierce it properly. So yes, given the whole 'left over damage gets the extra hits', when no damage is left over then there's no actual incoming damage to be resisted.