[CigarSmoker]

[...] Since the MeFeed host can beam you Cat videos without Noise interference, then so too can hackers contact the device without Noise interference.

Your original idea without the real life explanations was a lot better. Its simple logic. But I think adding more words wont help here ^^

[Ghost Rigger]

Jammers don't exempt devices based on where they're located relative to the jammer but rather by which radio frequencies they're using to communicate with the rest of the Matrix... so the Jammer doesn't scream on THOSE frequencies. That is how everything around them is overwhelmed with RF noise but they are not.  Now, since those exempted devices have clean frequencies to use to talk to other devices, it certainly stands to reason other unaffected devices can talk back, whether they're inside or outside the Jammer's field. Because if they couldn't, the exempted devices would be suffering Matrix interruptions.

Other unaffected devices CAN talk back, but chances are they WON'T. The odds that the decker's cyberdeck is going to be operating on the same frequency as the rigger's RCC are very low, and while the decker could set their frequency to match the rigger's, that would take work. It would some skill check to determine what the rigger's frequency is (assuming that it's a constant frequency, else you have to determine the pattern of frequencies the rigger uses) and then perhaps another check to dial in on the frequency. And in that time, the rigger might just have turned the decker into a corpse....or less morbidly, they might have achieved their objective, whatever it was. Or maybe they didn't achieve their objective, but they got further than they would have if the decker had been actively hacking them instead of trying to find a way to bypass all that noise.

In any case, I'll stand by my previous statement that if I have enough noise reduction, I might not even bother making my drone exempt from a jammer's effect and laugh as the decker feebly tries to penetrate the noise.

[CigarSmoker]

I would not use any {tech} explanations on shadowrun Matrix i try to show why:

Dont look at the defensive Jammer in a combat situation, look at daily life.

Imagine someone setting up the defensive Jammer Rating 6 exluding his Commlink. Now he gets calls by his customers, all using Commlinks DR3 (they are outside of the jammer field, yet they can call him) if the customers were affected by the Jam with DR3 they could not call him since Noise 6 is too much for their Devices even with SignalScrubber.

So in fact the defensivly jammed Device wouldnt be "unaffected" it would be affected in many way.

Now a Hacker could "call" him as well not affected by Noise, just like the Customers do.

If there are things like "relays" helping a DR1 Commlink to get calls out i dont know. A DR1 Commlink has a very limited Range with 0 Pogram slots. (100-1000m more is Noise 2 ...) But what "directly connected" means in  the Noise table is unclear, maybe the Commlink can be connected to something to reduce the Noise to 0 ...

[Ghost Rigger]

I would not use any {tech} explanations on shadowrun Matrix

I refuse. Am I supposed to just treat technology like it's unknowable hocus pocus?

[ZeroSum]

I would not use any {tech} explanations on shadowrun Matrix

I refuse. Am I supposed to just treat technology like it's unknowable hocus pocus?

Kind of? The Matrix in Shadowrun is not the internet. Technomancers do not exist in the real world, and we know that the Matrix in 6th Edition is partially based on technomancer research.

Using real world logic to explain the Matrix is like trying to use real-world physics to explain Shadowrun magic. Both the Matrix and magic are fictional game systems, and both are highly abstracted.

In some cases, I think it's better to just let go of trying to compare Shadowrun tech to real world similes and just accept that it's a game; just like with magic, when discussing rules I think it's sometimes easier to just look at the pure mechanical implementation as written. Of course, as I pointed out earlier, this does sometimes cause issues because we just don't have enough setting or rules information.

[CigarSmoker]

I would not use any {tech} explanations on shadowrun Matrix

I refuse. Am I supposed to just treat technology like it's unknowable hocus pocus?

Yep and that has a good reason.

I give you examples:

- the entire Matrix could be using radio wavebands similar to our Mobile networks, then there would be relays etc like they exist for us. This might be the intented tech being used.

- the user could be using optical devices for communications to prevent being hacked(basically "lasers") advantage would be there is no way to spoof that (as far as modern day knowledge is concerned) but this seems not to be possible in Shadowrun

- the user could be using linked Quantum particles for communication, with todays science proven that they exist its a way to communicate with no time delay. And there wouldnt be any "distance" . Hacking that would mean you form a third Quantum particle mimicing the other two ?

since its possible in 6th edition to spoof signals and there is delay ("noise") you can argue they are using radio wavenbands like we do. While it seems as if in 5th edition it wasnt possible to entirely block a device by using "noise" ? that speaks for something else entirely tech wise.

So why not just forget about frequencies and so on and just look what the rules say ... For me much of scientific tech blabla sounds like gibberish anyway - the word {tech} is coming from Star Trek Nerds to make fun of the explanations used in ScienceFiction movies/series.

[Xenon]

I like the reasoning you have (all of you), but I don't think they follow how the matrix rules are written. Maybe we are trying too hard thinking about how it worked back in 2019 and a bit too little of how the rules are actually written?


The Jam Signals Matrix Action does not only affect matrix actions conducted on devices that are inside the area of effect (like jammers do). Unlike jammers it explicitly also affect matrix actions that originate from devices outside the area of effect but are targeting devices inside the area of effect:

SR6 p. 182 Jam Signals
This action turns the wireless device you are using into a local jammer. As long as you do not use the device for any further Matrix actions, the device adds any hits you get on the test to the noise rating for all Matrix actions conducted by or targeting any devices within 100 meters.
(emphasis mine)


Unlike Jam Signals, the author for Jammer clearly choose to use another wording. A specific sentence with an explicit wording that make it clear that it only affect devices inside the area of effect were added:

SR6 p. 270 Jammer
The jammer only affects devices that are within the jamming area, but it affects all of them.
(emphasis mine)

Would it make sense if Jammer also affected matrix actions that are aimed at devices inside the area of effect? I personally think so (and so do a lot of the rest of you in this tread it seems), but the author here seem to have good reason why it should only affect devices inside the area of effect.

Either we respect what is written or we house rule that it work in a different way (that is what house rules are for after all), but I don't think one should claim that affecting matrix actions taken from devices that are clearly outside the area effect to be 'RAW' (because it isn't).



In regard to electromagnetic jamming signals in SR6 specifically it seem as if you just need to have a good connection to the "matrix" and then the "matrix" (rather than your device) will take care of transporting the signal all the way to the final target (maybe because the matrix is using a mesh network topology or whatnot). It seem as if as long as (three 'as' in a row, is that even legal??) your device have a good enough signal strength to still be connected to the matrix then it doesn't really matter how much electromagnetic jamming signals there are at the target device. It seem as if conditions at the target device will not directly affect you and your tests (unless, of course, conditions at the target device are so bad that they knock the device off-line in which case you cannot take any matrix action against until it resurface somewhere in the matrix).


If my cyberdeck is not inside the area of effect of your jammer then my cyberdeck is not affected and it is not at risk of being knocked off the matrix due to poor signal strength.

If your drone is at my physical location and not inside the area of effect of your jammer then your drone is also not affected and it is not at risk of being knocked off the matrix due to poor signal strength.

But if your RCC is inside the area of effect of your jammer then your RCC is affected and is at risk of being knocked off the matrix due to poor signal strength.


If I am trying to Data Spike your RCC then my cyberdeck will have a perfectly good signal to the matrix and I will only be affected by noise due to physical distance.

If you are trying to remote control your drone at my physical location your RCC will be affected by the jammer and you will have a poor signal to the matrix and your piloting and engineering tests will be both affected by local noise conditions generated by the jammer as well as noise due to physical distance.

If I am trying to gain User Access on your PAN rather than Data Spiking your RCC specifically then I could instead target your drone. Since your drone is part of your PAN and very close to my physical location I will in this case not even suffer noise due to physical distance (this is one of the drawbacks of having a large PANs that is also spread out over a huge physical area).


If you put your RCC on the jammer's white-list then my cyberdeck will still have a perfectly good signal to the matrix and I will still only be affected by noise due to physical distance when Data Spiking your RCC and I will not be affected by physical distance if I target your drone or your PAN via your drone that is part of your PAN, but in this case your RCC will no longer be affected by noise from the jammer so when remote controlling your drone at my physical location your piloting and engineering tests will only be affected by noise due to physical distance.



I can't see many other ways of resolving this without house ruling that jammers would, in addition to only affecting devices that are physically inside its area of effect, also affect devices outside the area of effect if they are trying to take specific actions on (or against) devices that are physically inside the area of effect.

[Ghost Rigger]

Kind of? The Matrix in Shadowrun is not the internet. Technomancers do not exist in the real world, and we know that the Matrix in 6th Edition is partially based on technomancer research.

A highly contentious issue in and of itself. However, moving on....

Using real world logic to explain the Matrix is like trying to use real-world physics to explain Shadowrun magic. Both the Matrix and magic are fictional game systems, and both are highly abstracted.

In some cases, I think it's better to just let go of trying to compare Shadowrun tech to real world similes and just accept that it's a game; just like with magic, when discussing rules I think it's sometimes easier to just look at the pure mechanical implementation as written. Of course, as I pointed out earlier, this does sometimes cause issues because we just don't have enough setting or rules information.

Problem is, once you pass the hurdle of "something for nothing" Shadowrun magic largely does conform to real-world physics. Magical fire burns things the same way mundane fire does, magical electricity electrocutes things the same way mundane electricity does, and so on. Furthermore, the existence of magic doesn't change how the rest of reality works. The existence of souls and essence doesn't invalidate modern medical technology. Magic is real, but astrology and perpetual motion machines are still bullshit. Likewise, the Matrix may be a bit hocus pocus when technomancers are involved, but there's no reason for it to be hocus pocus as far as mundane users and equipment are concerned.

[penllawen]

The Jam Signals Matrix Action does not only affect matrix actions conducted on devices that are inside the area of effect (like jammers do). Unlike jammers it explicitly also affect matrix actions that originate from devices outside the area of effect but are targeting devices inside the area of effect:

...well that doesn’t make a lick of sense to me.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The Jam Signals Matrix Action does not only affect matrix actions conducted on devices that are inside the area of effect (like jammers do). Unlike jammers it explicitly also affect matrix actions that originate from devices outside the area of effect but are targeting devices inside the area of effect:

...well that doesn’t make a lick of sense to me.

So here's what I think is the best practice:

You only tally Noise as following: local Noise rating for the area the acting character is in, the distance to the physical target (note, Hosts don't have a physical location and therefore distance never applies), and the only Noise you include for the target's location is "wireless negation".  Things like Anti-wireless paint/wallpaper (which are mentioned in the 6we CRB but not described) would be "wireless negation", but yes given the language used for the Jam Signals action so too would THAT Noise.  In the case of a Jammer, it'd apply its Noise to targets that are being jammed, but not to targets that are NOT being Jammed, as I discussed above.  (If a device is exempt from the Noise, Noise not affecting that device. Q.E.D.)

[penllawen]

You only tally Noise as following: local Noise rating for the area the acting character is in, the distance to the physical target (note, Hosts don't have a physical location and therefore distance never applies)

Not always true, right? It wasn’t strictly true in 5e, although IIRC non-Foundation hosts were only mentioned in splatbooks. 6e mentions them in the CRB though I think.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I don't think 6we has specified that Noise-due-to-distance never applies to Hosts.  But unless I'm mistaken: yes that WAS always the case in 5e.

[CigarSmoker]

I don't think 6we has specified that Noise-due-to-distance never applies to Hosts.  But unless I'm mistaken: yes that WAS always the case in 5e.

Its only implied in 6th
p.184 Trace Icon
This doesn’t work on IC or hosts that have no physical location, but it does work on offline hosts with physical hardware (although if you can access one of those to
trace it, you probably know where it is already).

If something has no physical location its either nowhere or everywhere ^^

Logging into a host with Commlinks like MetaLink seem to be the only way to communicate with far away devices for DR<3 Commlink users. 10 km range to call ppl would be a bit small compared to today.

But to access a host you need to be in VR right ?

And to access VR you need a Simrig, but the Simrig is only described on page 268 its missing in the table on the same page. So it might be intended they are obligatory now ...

going to add that last part to Errata Thread.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Well, even if a Host is said to have a physical location, it doesn't mean that physical location of the computers "running" the host is inside the building it correlates to.  Or even in the same sprawl. Or even on the same continent.

You want to hack the corner Stuffer Shack's host? It's profoundly unlikely they have a server rack running the host on-site. Much more likely to be run out of regional, or even global corporate hq. Or maybe even contracted out to a 3rd party matrix services farm in Singpore, Neo-Tokyo, or Albuquerque.

[CigarSmoker]

No i dont want to hack it i just want to get a call out.
p.177Noise
Directly connected (any distance) 0
Up to 100 meters 0
100–1,000 meters 1
1,001–10,000 meters (10 km) 3
10,001 meters to 100 km 5
Greater than 100 km 8

With device Rating 1 im in the 100 meters -1000 meters range. So i cant use p.183 Send Message (legal) No test (Minor) Outsider/User/Admin (which is basically making a phone call ) unless there is some grid, host or whatever you call it with no physical location that i can access to get that message out.

Or i would need a Device Rating 3 Commlink with Signal Scrubber Program and a Satellite Link then i could call anyone (in  Game terms: use Matrix Action Send Message)