[Leith]

But how would they know? They would have to hire a mage. What if that mage doesn't like you discriminating? How much work is it to barr every mage with an active spell? What if mages are on staff?

Also if you want to barr active spells you just pay a mage to ward your property every couple days or whatever. Which, I beleive was mentioned in SR5 as a standard and cheap security measure. And answers one of my questions above: pretty easy.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

But how would they know? They would have to hire a mage. What if that mage doesn't like you discriminating? How much work is it to barr every mage with an active spell? What if mages are on staff?

Also if you want to barr active spells you just pay a mage to ward your property every couple days or whatever. Which, I beleive was mentioned in SR5 as a standard and cheap security measure. And answers one of my questions above: pretty easy.

How would who know what?  If you have no magic security, other than the contracted security mage who's putting the spirit or watcher in your establishment, then it's actually quite easy for the astral watchdog.  ANYTHING astrally present, other than itself, is a problem.  Notify the mage, who's probably just sitting back in his doss watching trideo and raking in a paycheck from the 18 places he's guarding today.  Mage pauses his stream, projects onsite, looks more closely at whatever the spirit saw, and materializes to notify security who's the blockhead who walked in with active magic on.  Or, depending on the arrangement, he just removes your spell(s) right from the Astral.  Dispelling is hella easy in 6we.

Or, yes, just putting a ward up would be another option.  Which that same mage may also offer as an another service.  Double-dip your security fees wherever you can!


And as for "discrimination": if a place were to say "No Magic" that's not discrimination.  On private property, you can bar people from say carrying a concealed weapon.  Even where it's legal to do so, with or without a permit.  No reason it'd be any different with active magic.  Just because you have a license for it, it doesn't mean the owner of private property has to let you bring it in.

[Finstersang]

Limiting attribute augmentation is not the ideal way of balancing magic. All character types/archetypes should have access to multiple augmentations without having to resort to sacrificing their archetype (magic, resonance, ect.).

At first, I was like "Yeah, makes sense".

But then I asked myself: "Why exactly?"

Why do mages have to be able to boost multiple Attributes with "their" Attribute enhancement perk? Isn´t that mentality devaluating Augmentations and Adept Powers? And on the flip side, can Adepts and mundane characters summon spirits or cast spells? Can mundane Characters Astrally percieve? And do technomancers have any perks at all that offer any kind of attribute enhancements?

Right now, despite having a ton of other powerfull tools at their fingertips, mages just needs just one(!) spell and some ranks in Focused Concentration (or alternatively, sustaining foci) and they are able to buff up multiple Attributes during their morning breakfast routine, for a total sum that Adepts and Augmented can only dream of. Furthermore, the enhancements from Increase Attribute can affect Attributes that are off limits for Samurai and Adept perks, they can be adjusted for different Attributes when needed and they can be bestowed to other characters.

Restricting Increase Attribute to one appliance per target would be (or rather: would have been?) just the right measure to

• Balance out the increased flexibility of the Spell in an organic way
• Give Adepts and Augmented mundanes a niche in which they can outshine pure mages (at least to a degree, that new flexibility of Increase Attribute is still a banger)
• Make drain an actual thing that matters. Frankly, I´m suprised that so many people here don´t even dare to question the fact that mages can easily head for +8 Drain dice right out of chargen anymore 
• Promote more teamplay, since you retain more value from the spell when using it to buff up multiple characters and not just yourself.

Even with that nerf, Increase Attribute would still be safe pick in most spellbooks. And if you still insist that mages absolutely need multiple Attribute enhancements in their toolkit: That´s not even gone with that change. There´s still MysAds, the option to sacrifice 1-2 points of magice for lightweight augmentations, Combat drugs and the separate Increase Reflexes spell.

TL;DR: Increase Attributes should be restricted to one appliance per target, and there´s ample reasons to do so.

[Lormyr]

The problem with this is - if you’re using Quickening as per RAW - I don’t think they’re particularly interesting problems to have at the table.

That's a perfectly fair personal perspective on the matter. I personally would not take it as far as SSD except for possibly in extremely low end or extremely high end exclusive establishments, and even then only rarely.

Instead, I would constantly be checking that character's SIN when they encountered law enforcement. "You got a license for that christmas tree of spells and deific spirit, son?". The best Missions GMs I had did this to my Mystic Adept every time I walked down the street (figuratively).

Even 1 karma means (I think) no mage is going to regularly give up the Quickening to get in places. It’s not much of an investment, really, but it feels big. So I don’t feel this is a good counter balance.

But this is really the crux, and I don't disagree. Quickening is still good enough that even with social issues, SIN issues, and having to sit one out in the van on occasion issues it's worth taking.

In SR6 specifically, however, Quickened spells are significantly easier to dispell, and I think we will see that happening a lot in response. SR5 though? Forgot about it, you aren't dispelling anything, and even if you do miracle roll, you probably explode with drain for the effort.

At first, I was like "Yeah, makes sense".

But then I asked myself: "Why exactly?"

I see where you are going with your logic, but you do need to take my perspective in the single context it was meant. Note that I also specifically commented on how Technomacers get hosed when it comes to attribute augmentation and how that is unacceptable.

Do I think mages (and all archetypes, no exception) deserve attribute augmentation? Yes.

Do mages also need all the other options that come at their disposal along with that attribute augmentation? Hell no. The rest of your points are largely in line with the limitations I suggested up thread.

[Finstersang]

I see where you are going with your logic, but you do need to take my perspective in the single context it was meant. Note that I also specifically commented on how Technomacers get hosed when it comes to attribute augmentation and how that is unacceptable.

Do I think mages (and all archetypes, no exception) deserve attribute augmentation? Yes.

Do mages also need all the other options that come at their disposal along with that attribute augmentation? Hell no. The rest of your points are largely in line with the limitations I suggested up thread.

Fair point. Note that this critique wasn´t supposed directed at you or the post as whole and more at the general philosophy behind that very first statement. Should have made that more clear

I feel that we still partially disagree, though: I don´t think that every Archetype absolutley needs to have comparable Attribute (and other dice pool) enhancement options. IMO, zhis should be the space were Adept powers and Augmentations (and remember, the latter are open to anyone if you are willing to sacrifice some Magic or Resonance!) shine. The toolkit of a mage already contains many strong and versatile options.

Regarding Technomancers: I wouldn´t strictly argue against some resonance-based perks to alter/buff mental and physical (mostly, Agility and Reaction) attributes as long as they are explained well ("You have mastered your own resonant nervous system and are now able to reprogram it at will", yadda yadda). However, this may lead into a design trap were competing Archetypes - in this case, deckers and TMs - are often reduced to a bunch of numbers, statistics and dice pools. I´d rather see more unique, spell-like perks for Technomancers that reflect their reality-bending paranormal abilites than of a bunch of resonance-based surrogates for the augmentations that a decker would have. (Addendum: That´s also why I´m quite underwhelmed by the current range of complex forms and Echoes. Many of these are still just tweaked versions of Matrixs Actions, Programms and Augmentations. Besides the Skinlink Echo, theres´s nothing that really gives them a kind of "Matrix Wizard" vibe.)

[Shinobi Killfist]

Well, unlike Magic, virtually EVERYONE is a Matrix user.

If you flat out ban all magic, you're only even affecting a percent of a percent of the population of the sprawl.  If Mages are actually part of your clientele, sure you'll probably want a policy with more discretion.  But for most places? "No Magic. Period." isn't going to cost them meaningful business.

Back in the grounding days if people even took a focus they only took as much as they could mask. I see nothing wrong with setting the society up by and large with you only sustain the spells you can mask.

Personally I’d still ditch all forms of sustaining without penalty if I were writing the rules.