NEWS

Noise

  • 33 Replies
  • 6144 Views

Banshee

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1095
« Reply #15 on: <12-15-19/2126:51> »
No, as I said earlier a hacker would have the noise penalty based on the distance between them and the host (more specifically it would be the access point of the host) while the spider technically does as well their distance should be zero since they should be set by the Corp with a nice convenient access point. Physical distance between the two personas don't mean anything since they are both occupying the host at that time it would be distance between each of them and the host.

So .. the hacker has a penalty and the spider does not. Welcome to big brother's home turf.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
Freelancer & FAQ Committee member
Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #16 on: <12-15-19/2131:26> »
Banshee that raises a spinoff question I have:

If the hacker wants to hack a door lock or security camera networked/slaved/controlled by the Host, do you have to successfully enter the host first or can you just go right after the devices in the same way as if they were PAN'd?
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Banshee

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1095
« Reply #17 on: <12-15-19/2143:56> »
Banshee that raises a spinoff question I have:

If the hacker wants to hack a door lock or security camera networked/slaved/controlled by the Host, do you have to successfully enter the host first or can you just go right after the devices in the same way as if they were PAN'd?

Short answer, yes.
If you can connect to the device (either because it is wireless or you physically can connect) you can hack it .. it just gets to defend with the host's defenses. So in essence you are gaining access (unless taking an action that does not require access) to the host through the device.

Remember it's not about the the whole master/slave relationship anymore. A network is a network... the only thing that makes a host different from a pan is the amount of processing power they possess granting them the increase ares of influence essentially.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
Freelancer & FAQ Committee member
Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

SDTroll

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 91
« Reply #18 on: <12-15-19/2154:18> »
No, as I said earlier a hacker would have the noise penalty based on the distance between them and the host (more specifically it would be the access point of the host) while the spider technically does as well their distance should be zero since they should be set by the Corp with a nice convenient access point. Physical distance between the two personas don't mean anything since they are both occupying the host at that time it would be distance between each of them and the host.

So .. the hacker has a penalty and the spider does not. Welcome to big brother's home turf.

Ok, I don’t get it, but it’s your game, thus exposing the spider to the noise penalty? Or does being a spider mean they are totally immune to noise no matter where the hacker goes?

What about two hackers fighting in a chat room? Do they both have noise penalties? Can you even do a chat room? Do all hackers have to be within noise range?

SDTroll

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 91
« Reply #19 on: <12-15-19/2202:21> »
Banshee that raises a spinoff question I have:

If the hacker wants to hack a door lock or security camera networked/slaved/controlled by the Host, do you have to successfully enter the host first or can you just go right after the devices in the same way as if they were PAN'd?

Short answer, yes.
If you can connect to the device (either because it is wireless or you physically can connect) you can hack it .. it just gets to defend with the host's defenses. So in essence you are gaining access (unless taking an action that does not require access) to the host through the device.

Remember it's not about the the whole master/slave relationship anymore. A network is a network... the only thing that makes a host different from a pan is the amount of processing power they possess granting them the increase ares of influence essentially.

Now I’m even more confused. The paragraph under hosts in the matrix section specifically says that any icons inside the host are not accessible unless they are expressly part of the public facing side. Is that not correct?

Banshee

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1095
« Reply #20 on: <12-15-19/2205:50> »
If the "fight" were to leave the host and the spider had to pursue the hacker to another matrix "location" then yes he would be facing noise penalty.

As the rest of you a "chat room" would just be a node setup on a common host/network... so yes if they are not "local" theyvwould have issues. Remember as I have stated elsewhere ... it's about the distance between you and the access point. So yes most often the only time that distance is an issue is if you are trying to access a PAN or private host.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
Freelancer & FAQ Committee member
Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

Banshee

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1095
« Reply #21 on: <12-15-19/2210:55> »
Banshee that raises a spinoff question I have:

If the hacker wants to hack a door lock or security camera networked/slaved/controlled by the Host, do you have to successfully enter the host first or can you just go right after the devices in the same way as if they were PAN'd?

Short answer, yes.
If you can connect to the device (either because it is wireless or you physically can connect) you can hack it .. it just gets to defend with the host's defenses. So in essence you are gaining access (unless taking an action that does not require access) to the host through the device.

Remember it's not about the the whole master/slave relationship anymore. A network is a network... the only thing that makes a host different from a pan is the amount of processing power they possess granting them the increase ares of influence essentially.

Now I’m even more confused. The paragraph under hosts in the matrix section specifically says that any icons inside the host are not accessible unless they are expressly part of the public facing side. Is that not correct?

It is correct... again it's about networks not icons. If you want to interact with an icon that is inside the host you must first access the host. It really is way more simple than people want to make it. A network is a network is a network  ... want to interact with anything on that network gain access to that network. (With the one caveat being not all things require actual access)
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
Freelancer & FAQ Committee member
Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

SDTroll

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 91
« Reply #22 on: <12-15-19/2229:49> »
Banshee that raises a spinoff question I have:

If the hacker wants to hack a door lock or security camera networked/slaved/controlled by the Host, do you have to successfully enter the host first or can you just go right after the devices in the same way as if they were PAN'd?

Short answer, yes.
If you can connect to the device (either because it is wireless or you physically can connect) you can hack it .. it just gets to defend with the host's defenses. So in essence you are gaining access (unless taking an action that does not require access) to the host through the device.

Remember it's not about the the whole master/slave relationship anymore. A network is a network... the only thing that makes a host different from a pan is the amount of processing power they possess granting them the increase ares of influence essentially.

Now I’m even more confused. The paragraph under hosts in the matrix section specifically says that any icons inside the host are not accessible unless they are expressly part of the public facing side. Is that not correct?

It is correct... again it's about networks not icons. If you want to interact with an icon that is inside the host you must first access the host. It really is way more simple than people want to make it. A network is a network is a network  ... want to interact with anything on that network gain access to that network. (With the one caveat being not all things require actual access)

Oh how I wish it was simple. Every answer seems to contradict another one. Trying to make it make sense, the rules specifically say icons in a host are not accessible unless you have access to the host. Gaining access to the host allows you to interact with the icons. I assumed that meant you can’t interact with the icons in a host without access, meaning, unlike a PAN, you can’t data spike them or anything else without getting access through backdoor entry or brute force. Otherwise why have the paragraph at all?

Leith

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 107
« Reply #23 on: <12-15-19/2231:42> »
If noise exists to force hackers closer to their targets, why is staying home bad?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #24 on: <12-15-19/2251:08> »
If noise exists to force hackers closer to their targets, why is staying home bad?

"Let's go get pizza while the decker's player and the GM do the hacking thing" has been a chronic problem in Shadowrun since, forever.  Every edition since 2nd has tried to address it one way or another.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Leith

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 107
« Reply #25 on: <12-16-19/0101:07> »
If noise exists to force hackers closer to their targets, why is staying home bad?

"Let's go get pizza while the decker's player and the GM do the hacking thing" has been a chronic problem in Shadowrun since, forever.  Every edition since 2nd has tried to address it one way or another.

Having to go somewhere doesn't address that.

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9944
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #26 on: <12-16-19/0653:52> »
A slight note: There are Hosts that are location-bound: If you're away from them, you suffer.

Furthermore, if you're hacking a Host directly, you have an increased risk of Spiders / IC noticing you while you're trying to find one of the MANY cameras to hack. If you're in-situ, you can probably identify the camera better and hack it without having to find it first.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6471
« Reply #27 on: <12-16-19/1240:21> »
In this edition it seem to be confusing what you can and cannot do without taking the Enter Host action ;-)

For example:


To data spike a wireless enabled device that is part of a host network it seem as if you don't first need user or admin access to the network (data spike an outside access action). I read this as if you also don't have to be "inside" (taking the Enter Host action) the host before you can take this action.

In previous edition a hacker could
- Data spike it directly out on the grid without having access to the host (but in this case it would defend with master ratings and the hacker would potential also suffer noise penalties)
- Use a cable between cyberdeck and the device / physically touching it with skin link echo (ignoring both master ratings and noise ratings)
- First gain access on the host and then enter the host (have to watch out for IC and spider but once inside the host a potential hacker would be considered direct connected which let him ignore both master ratings and noise ratings).



To control a wireless enabled device that is part of a host network it seem as if you first need user or admin access on the network (depending on what you want to do with the device). Not clear if you also need to be "inside" the host (taking the Enter Host action) or not.

Is the device out on the grid or is the device inside the host. Can you "see" the device from the grid before entering the host? Can you "see" the device from inside a host after you entered the host?

In previous edition the distance to hosts were always zero no matter where in the physical world you were located and a wireless device was always out on the grid, but if part of a host network you would be considered directly connected to devices slaved to the host even though they were out on the grid (which meant you could interact with them directly from within the host and since you were directly connected to them you would also ignore master ratings when attacking them and you would also ignore noise ratings).

In previous edition a hacker would have to gain access on the individual device and then either
- Control it directly from the grid (in this case it would defend with master ratings and the hacker would potential suffer noise penalties)
- Use a cable between cyberdeck and the device / physically touching it with skin link echo (ignoring host and noise ratings)
- First gain access to the host and enter the host (have to watch out for IC and spider but would be considered having a direct connection to ignore host and noise ratings).



To edit a file located on a host network you first need user or admin access to the network and you also might need to find the specific file (for example by using hash check). Not clear if you also need to be "inside" the host (taking the Enter Host action) but it seems plausible.

In previous edition your only option was to first gain access on the host, take the Enter Host action, matrix search action with a base time of 1 minute to locate the specific file and then you had to gain access on the individual file icon as well. The file would defend with host ratings, but the "distance" would always be considered to be zero.



Also not clear if some actions are obvious and will alert the host or if other actions are stealthy and does not alert the host. Except for a few actions have the behavior explicitly listed (such as Probe).

In previous edition all actions that used Attack as limit were considered immediately obvious and would always alert the target if successful (cracking a protected file, for example) while all actions that use Sleaze as a limit were considered stealthy and was never noticed as long as successful but on failed attempt the action was not only noticed, the target (or the owner of the target) would also automatically gain access on the offender (snoop for example).

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #28 on: <12-16-19/1247:08> »
Quote from: Xenon link=topic=30758.msg532589
In this edition it seem to be confusing what you can and cannot do without taking the Enter Host action ;-)

I'm picking up what you're putting down ;-)

However, I think if you just presume there's an un-stated rule that you have to successfully enter a host before you can do anything to the devices protected by that host, it gets simple.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Banshee

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1095
« Reply #29 on: <12-16-19/1403:32> »
Actually it's even more simple than that really ... if you can "see" thecicon for the device you can hack it. In otherwords you can data spike (or use any action requiring outsider access) anything anywhere ... as long as you can detect it. Want to do something that requires user or admin access then hack the network it belongs to first to gain access.

So stuff inside a host is just like anything inside of PAN ... a network is a network is a network... the defining "attribute" is can you detect it?
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
Freelancer & FAQ Committee member
Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team