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[6e] Deferring actions

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RuleLawyer

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« Reply #45 on: <04-06-20/1756:52> »
I agree GMs need to provide some mechanism for waiting characters to act with a firearm/spell before, during or after an NPCs movement. I prefer the mechanism to be in the book, like 4A and 5E had, so I can have a more consistent play experience as I roam the country dropping in on games in San Diego, Colorado Springs, Austin, Columbus, Indianapolis, and so on. A way is already provided for melee combat to interrupt an NPCs movement. I look forward to future books, errata, or SRM FAQs to provide a standard for Firearms/Spells too.

Banshee

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« Reply #46 on: <04-06-20/2000:48> »
So let me get this straight...

You guys think we NEED a rule that says you can your turn at anytime as long as it is on or after your initiative?

Because that's all we are talking about here .. there is no need for special interrupt actions that just take away action economy because you are too fast.

The only "interrupt" actions we have and are likely to see are defensive
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Leith

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« Reply #47 on: <04-06-20/2001:31> »
You don't really need rules for how far a person can walk either. But they made it into the book anyway.

Banshee

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« Reply #48 on: <04-06-20/2014:12> »
Yeah, but maybe my point is being missed.

Are you willing to give up an action (which in my opinion is a precious commodity in 6e) just to say "nah, I can wait and go here in just a second"
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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RuleLawyer

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« Reply #49 on: <04-06-20/2024:31> »
You guys think we NEED a rule that says you can your turn at anytime as long as it is on or after your initiative?
Yes. Delayed/Reserved/Held Action of some sort.
“I hold off shooting my grenade launcher till the mage gets the kids out of the blast area.
“I walk 2 steps and point my pistol at the doorway, waiting for a target to appear.
“I point my pistol at the gang and yell ‘Run Away!’, but I reserve pulling the trigger.
A simple, easy mechanism that all GMs can handle the same way, doesn’t require GMs to search the books for something that isn’t there, and doesn’t take up 40 posts on a forum.

That’s my 2 cents. Others may disagree. Thanks for asking.

Leith

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« Reply #50 on: <04-06-20/2026:09> »
Yeah, but maybe my point is being missed.

Are you willing to give up an action (which in my opinion is a precious commodity in 6e) just to say "nah, I can wait and go here in just a second"

That's not clearer. Go where in a second? Give up what action to do what?

EDIT: you mean like a readied action?
« Last Edit: <04-06-20/2029:06> by Leith »

Banshee

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« Reply #51 on: <04-06-20/2032:22> »
Yeah, but maybe my point is being missed.

Are you willing to give up an action (which in my opinion is a precious commodity in 6e) just to say "nah, I can wait and go here in just a second"

That's not clearer. Go where in a second? Give up what action to do what?

EDIT: you mean like a readied action?

Exactly... do you want to have to use a minor action just so you can say I'm going to use my major action 1.5 seconds after my initiative when "X" event happens?

Or would you rather just leave like it is and go whenever you need to as long as it is not before your initiative
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Former RPG Lead Agent
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Redwulfe

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« Reply #52 on: <04-06-20/2034:24> »
I would like to have one for the sake of constancy at various tables, yes. Or some sort of FAQ to give guidance to STs so we can have a more consistent existence.
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Leith

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« Reply #53 on: <04-06-20/2037:30> »
But there are so many ways to resolve a deferred actuon, just in this thread alone. Which kinda proves my point that the book should have put one forth. Then GMs could use it or not and players would know what to expect without even having to ask.
Is that necessary? No. But it would make for better game design or book writing or whatever.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #54 on: <04-06-20/2252:55> »
Yeah, but maybe my point is being missed.

Are you willing to give up an action (which in my opinion is a precious commodity in 6e) just to say "nah, I can wait and go here in just a second"

That's not clearer. Go where in a second? Give up what action to do what?

EDIT: you mean like a readied action?

Exactly... do you want to have to use a minor action just so you can say I'm going to use my major action 1.5 seconds after my initiative when "X" event happens?

Or would you rather just leave like it is and go whenever you need to as long as it is not before your initiative

If my choice was depend on the whims of the DM or have a rule that costs a minor action I'd take the rule. It is a role playing GAME. games have rules.

Lormyr

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« Reply #55 on: <04-07-20/0931:13> »
No amount of rules will prevent GMs from being jerks.   GMs being jerks is a problem that isn't solved by putting the rulebook over their heads.

I totally agree. However, there are other types too. For example I know many "by the book" GMs, who are not jerks, but are sticklers for the rules. My experience is those are the second most common GMs, after the "Who cares, lets just have fun." GMs. This has been particularly true for both my Missions and PFS play.

If my choice was depend on the whims of the DM or have a rule that costs a minor action I'd take the rule. It is a role playing GAME. games have rules.

Pretty much this.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

skalchemist

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« Reply #56 on: <04-07-20/0935:51> »
I had mentioned something like this earlier, but I think there are two purposes for initiative in many games, and they don't really sit well together.

* Initiative determines the order in which people take their turns
* Initiative determines who has the, well, initiative in the fight.  Who has the upper hand, who has a better control of the situation.

In the very strict sense of "I can take my first action before anyone else", the first use of initiative also works for the 2nd.  But for any other type of "controlling the fight", the first use of initiative conflicts with the second.  The examples provided by RulesLawyer are great:

Quote
“I hold off shooting my grenade launcher till the mage gets the kids out of the blast area.
“I walk 2 steps and point my pistol at the doorway, waiting for a target to appear.
“I point my pistol at the gang and yell ‘Run Away!’, but I reserve pulling the trigger.

All of these are cases where initiative FEELS like it should mean "I have more control over what happens in the fight" but when only used as a turn order mechanism it doesn't actually give you that control. 

Lots of ways to get around this, if you feel it needs to be gotten around.  In a game like SR 6E, some kind of deferral of action is probably best.  Its the one rule that could allow for all of the examples above. 
« Last Edit: <04-07-20/0939:16> by skalchemist »

skalchemist

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« Reply #57 on: <04-07-20/0942:57> »
If my choice was depend on the whims of the DM or have a rule that costs a minor action I'd take the rule. It is a role playing GAME. games have rules.

Pretty much this.
You see, I've never had such bad GM's so frequently that I feel this strongly.  But I still agree with Lormyr and others that this should be in the rules.  I don't think it has anything to do with GM whim or how good they are.  It has to do with the rules explaining themselves.  Several folks on this thread have indicated that the GM is somehow supposed to know when they should be flexible on all this, but how?  The last time I played Shadowrun was back in 1E, so "how it was done in 5E" is meaningless to me.   If you read the current rules text, other than some general "rules zero"-y text, there is nothing in the initiative sections I can see that indicates that a GM should somehow be flexible in the way Banshee described in an earlier post.  So how does a GM know they should be, especially a new GM? 

The rules should explain themselves when they expect you to not follow them, or there should be a rule. 

Lormyr

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« Reply #58 on: <04-07-20/1111:24> »
You see, I've never had such bad GM's so frequently that I feel this strongly.  But I still agree with Lormyr and others that this should be in the rules.  I don't think it has anything to do with GM whim or how good they are.  It has to do with the rules explaining themselves.

That is a good way of putting it.

Out of personal curiosity, may I ask what area of the world you live in, and how extensive your convention play has been? I am always interested in learning what sort of random GMs people tend to encounter geographically.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

skalchemist

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« Reply #59 on: <04-07-20/1134:25> »
You see, I've never had such bad GM's so frequently that I feel this strongly.  But I still agree with Lormyr and others that this should be in the rules.  I don't think it has anything to do with GM whim or how good they are.  It has to do with the rules explaining themselves.

That is a good way of putting it.

Out of personal curiosity, may I ask what area of the world you live in, and how extensive your convention play has been? I am always interested in learning what sort of random GMs people tend to encounter geographically.
Happy to answer that.  I've lived in Hamilton Ontario since early 2005, but I"m originally from Indiana.  I've played a LOT of convention games, but a lot of that is because I've gone to GenCon every year (except once to Origins) SINCE 2005, mostly to visit with old Indiana friends.  I've also done my best to go to regional conventions here in Ontario as well; formerly Hammercon and Pandemonium, more recently Breakout.  I like playing and running convention games a lot, but I've also been pretty deep in the indie-RPG scene (e.g. Games On Demand at GenCon) over the past 15 years.  I played one 4E Missions game at GenCon (I think it was 4E) but that is the only Shadowrun I have played since like 1992. 

I've played with a LOT of GMs at conventions, and I would break them down like this:

10% - super awesome.  The reasons they were awesome might be all over the map, depending on the game, but I walked away thinking that person was at least as good a GM as I am, and in most cases far far better than I would be at the game I was playing. 
60% - good.  I enjoyed myself.  The GM knew the rules, knew the game, did their job well, and was friendly.  I was glad I spent 2-4 hours with them.  There may have been problems with the game itself; I might have even hated the game.  But that was just a mismatch between me and the game, and not the GM's fault.
20% - bad.  A waste of time.  Again the reasons are all over the map, depending on game and circumstance.  Often the GM was just very inexperienced.  But many GM's were just bad; they didn't grasp even the basic universal principles of GM'ing, like paying attention to your players or making sure "screen-time" is as evenly assigned as possible.  Some were actual jerks.
10% - laughably awesomely bad.  So bad that you still tell the story with your friends years later.  So bad you remember individual moments of the experience like it was yesterday.  So bad that after the fact, when you tell yourself "I should have just left the table" you reply "Yeah, but then I wouldn't have this awesome story of how bad it was to tell".  This is almost universally a GM who a) has no idea how to even GM at all and b) THINKS they are a super awesome GM.  That is a toxic combination.

EDIT: I'm probably overestimating the last category by proportion.  Those sessions loom so large in memory that its hard to accurately assess their frequency. 

EDIT2: I'd say at least half of the bad games I played were in cases where a GM had been "roped in" to run something with little preparation because someone else dropped out, or where a game company was clearly taking anyone with a pulse to make sure they filled X tables at GenCon.  This is why I made a comment in a different thread on this issue; this is IMO the WORST THING a game company trying to make a good impressions can do. 
« Last Edit: <04-07-20/1145:54> by skalchemist »