[Reaver]

Idunno, sounds more like the table considers it 0/- for not possible since right now there's no rules stating who IS allowed to throw that far.

I just noticed there is one spot in the rules that clearly indicates attacks are possible at zero attack rating; the thrown grenade rules on page 115 where it says AR is zero at far and extreme ranges.  It says most characters won't be able to throw grenades that far, but if you have the strength, you can clearly do it even though your AR is zero.

I figure if a weapon's AR has a numerical value, even a negative, you can shoot your shot with a potential to do damage. If a weapon's AR reads "-" it's because the round has traveled beyond it's effective lethal range. Sure, the bullet might hit, but it's impact is similar to a thrown pebble.

so using that logic then do all unarmed attacks by pixies have an AR of "_"?

<crosses fingers, toes, arms, legs>
Oh, please say yeas! PLEASE say yes!! PL-LEASE SAY YES!!!!!!! For the love of reason and common sense: PLEASE SAY YES!!!!


The thought of something the size of a toddler having the mass and strength to harm a full grown man with an empty hand is just plain silly....

Finesse Weapons appeared in ... 3rd?  Edition D&D.  20 Years ago give or take?  The concept of divorcing Str from melee damage isn't breaking new RPG grounds.   Str matters for melee, not as much as previous editions, absolutely.   Lots more things to take issue with in 6th, IMO.

If Str adding to AR and not DV was 6ths biggest sin we'd all be singing the praises of the new edition.   

(totally could be 3.5 Edition that Finesse Weapons appeared...but I doubt D&D was the first game to do something along those lines)

Actually, Finesse fighting appeared in the 2e DnD Swords and Sorcery supplemental. But it lacked the versatility that came with the total rewrite of the DnD rules that came with 3e.

Under 2e, The MAX dex any character could get was 19
 (not even elves got higher), for a +3 bonus. However, Strength branched off into percentiles after 18, for a total bonus of +6!

Also, Weapon finesse did nothing for damage, it was a straight bonus to hit under 2e rules. It wasn't until 3.5 that Weapon Finesse added to damage (probably to appease the whiners that whined "why can't my DEX fighter hit as hard as a STR fighter?? We both have 18s in the stat.. its not fair!!! Oh and I want to dual wield shields too!!!)


But, if you REALLY wanna get into the DnD debates... well, people have gone missing, and others have lost body parts debating THAT system... (which has 0 grounding in anything other then number crunching) 

[Lormyr]

If Str adding to AR and not DV was 6ths biggest sin we'd all be singing the praises of the new edition.

In fairness, this is a major point of contention for me. We're talking top 3 list of things disliked about 6e. Simply put, I am unable to get over a strength 2 elf striking for the same damage, with the same weapon, as a strength 13 troll.

[Hobbes]

Fair 'nuff.

And I have 0 desire to debate D&D editions.  It was simply the earliest example I could recall.  And I couldn't even recall exact edition, so... 

As I said in the Melee Str thread, if you're not building your combat character to generate Edge, you're significantly less effective.  Str helps generate Edge for most weapons.  (Welcome to Shadowrun where for 6 Editions in a row the Monowhip is king of melee weapons... moving on.)   More Edge = overall more damage output, and not because you're plinking away 1 or 2 hits at a time.  The Edge actions are where it's at. 

And on topic for this thread, giving up Edge to the GM is a non-trivial thing.  GMs can be evil and should also be using the Edge actions for their NPCs. 

"All this Automatic weapon fire has attracted attention.  A Lone Star City Master, sirens blaring, is screeching around the corner, it must have just been a couple blocks away when the shooting started..."  *Tosses in 5 chips* 

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

If Str adding to AR and not DV was 6ths biggest sin we'd all be singing the praises of the new edition.

In fairness, this is a major point of contention for me. We're talking top 3 list of things disliked about 6e. Simply put, I am unable to get over a strength 2 elf striking for the same damage, with the same weapon, as a strength 13 troll.

Well, for what it's worth, I like the idea of expanding the STR rules for hardened cyberlimbs DV to ALL melee weapons.  (MFW excluded, naturally)

[Lormyr]

If Str adding to AR and not DV was 6ths biggest sin we'd all be singing the praises of the new edition.

In fairness, this is a major point of contention for me. We're talking top 3 list of things disliked about 6e. Simply put, I am unable to get over a strength 2 elf striking for the same damage, with the same weapon, as a strength 13 troll.

Well, for what it's worth, I like the idea of expanding the STR rules for hardened cyberlimbs DV to ALL melee weapons.  (MFW excluded, naturally)

A play of that would help. Like +1 DV if you are STR 7, or +2 if you are truly superhuman at 12+.