[Redwulfe]

I decided to start a new thread on this rather than derail the Hacking a device thread.

So the question is: Does the wireless bonus present a meaningful choice given the vulnerability that is going to be presented?

Risk versus reward is a thing in Shadowrun now I am all for it, but I am not sure that the current rules make the wireless choice very meaningful. Without a choice then their really is no risk versus reward as you always choose to not take the risk. With or without a Decker on your side you are always creating a larger vulnerability than the benefits you receive would offset. It only takes one spoof command to take you out of a fight. This is not worth an extra minor action or a +1 die pool as these do not give you as much as the vulnerability you create will take.

So why even have wireless bonuses at all? To me, currently, they seem like a poor choice almost every time since you are worse off taking the bonus rather than having them.

then there is the bonuses to hide things or yourself like Chameleon suite. It seems like these are a bad choice as well as you can defeat my Stealth by making a matrix perception looking for the icons I am wearing instead of looking for me. This reduces any Stealth pool down to your willpower or if you are lucky to have a Decker Will + sleaze. But either way your stealth pools means nothing if you have wireless on. So another reason to just not have anything active and making the bonuses a honey pot at best.

I know I am sounding overly critical, but I truly do like the core concept of having wireless bonuses but unfortunately I am hoping someone can change my mind on this. Wireless bonuses are not ever worth taking. they are at best a small boost that takes up a minor to turn them on when and only when you know their is absolutely no matrix defense or if doing any thing slightly illegal no chance that a matrix perception test can be used against you. and in my mind that is all a building spider, patrol officer, checkpoint, or patrol drone is doing. so keep the wireless off unless you want trouble its not worth it.

The only wireless bonus I thought even came close was Wireless reflexes and Reaction enhance when use in concert but then repairing the damage a dataspike would do to the system made that not seem like a good choice either.

Though I have this opinion I don't think the bonuses should change, but I do think how they are protected needs to be or what can effect them needs to be tweaked. if they provide  a minor bump then the risk to having them on should also pose a minor vulnerability. I get that hackers needed a boost in combat but if every combat suddenly stops using wireless because it isn't worth the risk then did they really get a boost?

[Michael Chandra]

Deckers are rare. Even Spiders tend not to crawl for wireless systems to hack. What players can do, most enemies will not. How often do you run into an enemy decker? And worst case, a runner will switch to a throwback gun or just turn off wireless and reload. So you're only out of the fight when your enemies are too weak or way too strong, causing the fight to end really quick. And that's assuming you're not running silent while being protected by a Decker. So you're basically balancing 'rare chance of getting screwed' with 'constant small benefits'. Don't underestimate the value of an extra Minor Action either, when you're busy with tactics.

As for Chameleon Suit: Spotting an icon does not equal spotting its location. So it's still quite possible to sneak with that on.

[Banshee]

Can you elaborate on what you think a single spoof command can do?

There should basically be no way a matrix specialist can take any physical combatants out of a fight with a single action.

Mess with them, create penalties/create tactical, or force them to use up an action ... yes

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Can you elaborate on what you think a single spoof command can do?

There should basically be no way a matrix specialist can take any physical combatants out of a fight with a single action.

Mess with them, create penalties/create tactical, or force them to use up an action ... yes

Well... Spoof Command on Grenadey McGrenaderson's grenade to blow up in his own pocket would do eliminate him in a single action. As well as everyone nearby.  Of course the moral here is don't go walking around with grenades with wireless enabled (tho personally, I'd say don't be that guy.  Just don't use grenades at all.)

Of course, commanding a cyberarm to throw a weapon away would be pretty bad for the receiving end, but then again there's no wireless bonuses for cyberlimbs so they may as well run wireless-off.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

with regards to the OP:

wireless bonuses need to be worth taking, or else there's precious little for combat-hacking to DO.  Consider how unfun it'd be to play a mage if NPCs could just go "astral off" and be untouchable by magic!

I would have liked to have seen "wireless-off" just not even being a thing anymore. But, whatevs.  It's probably for the best (of non-hackers, anyway) that you have the choice: use those sweet sweet bonus dice/action rebates and be at risk of getting hacked, or turn them down in order to be unhackable.


And ditto Michael Chandra's comment about spotting a matrix icon as not being the same thing as spotting a hiding person.  Think of it like spotting magic:  just because someone might feel some heebie-jeebies and realize some active magic is afoot, it doesn't ALSO mean that that someone knows the active magic is invisibility and it absolutely doesn't mean he knows exactly where the invisible object IS.   Yes, your chameleon suit can be tracked to a specific location, but not until a Trace Icon action has been successfully done.  If you think that's a risk then absolutely don't use your wireless bonus.  If you don't think the opposition is paying that close attention to the matrix airwaves, or if you trust the competence of your matrix overwatch PC, then by all means take your chances.

[Michael Chandra]

Well... Spoof Command on Grenadey McGrenaderson's grenade to blow up in his own pocket would do eliminate him in a single action. As well as everyone nearby.  Of course the moral here is don't go walking around with grenades with wireless enabled (tho personally, I'd say don't be that guy.  Just don't use grenades at all.)

A runner could just switch device mode then throw the thing, or use a launcher that arms and has a safety on, while a murderhobo or bad ganger would indeed be reckless. =3 Got to love that way to deal with grenade-wielders!

[Banshee]

Can you elaborate on what you think a single spoof command can do?

There should basically be no way a matrix specialist can take any physical combatants out of a fight with a single action.

Mess with them, create penalties/create tactical, or force them to use up an action ... yes

Well... Spoof Command on Grenadey McGrenaderson's grenade to blow up in his own pocket would do eliminate him in a single action. As well as everyone nearby.  Of course the moral here is don't go walking around with grenades with wireless enabled (tho personally, I'd say don't be that guy.  Just don't use grenades at all.)

Of course, commanding a cyberarm to throw a weapon away would be pretty bad for the receiving end, but then again there's no wireless bonuses for cyberlimbs so they may as well run wireless-off.

Ok yeah ... I didn't think about that one ... but that's because grenade damage is so out of whack. Definitely run those thing wireless off if feel the need to carry them at all!

I was thinking more directly... spoof command shouldn't result in anything more than an inconvenience and data spike isn't likely to one shot anything that's going to take someone out.

[Michael Chandra]

Data Spike does penalize if you use that gun, since devices now got injury modifiers. Which I like, because it means even if you turn off wireless after the first punch, you already got hit by a downside. But yeah, it's hard to disable someone, though costing them time is a good way to open the fight.

[Banshee]

Data Spike does penalize if you use that gun, since devices now got injury modifiers. Which I like, because it means even if you turn off wireless after the first punch, you already got hit by a downside. But yeah, it's hard to disable someone, though costing them time is a good way to open the fight.

Absolutely... that's my point though. You can mess with them but it will be rare to take someone out altogether

[Redwulfe]

It is not just spoof but for spoof specifically as far as I knew any command that could be given to the device could be spoofed. So Eject clip, turn the device off for Cybereyes. Having a Cyberarm throw something away. lots of stuff you could imagine. Explode a grenade, fire the weapon, like the stun baton on his side. Data jacks are used to DNI to a person and this imposes a feed over the persons eyes so they can preceive AR and such so you could spoof the Datajack to connect to the comlinks camera and then the attacker is seeing sideways or some such and not at the target he is trying to fire at. Each of these could impose a disadvantage that could taek you out of a combat until you fix it. maybe even loosing your actions to fix. So to me loosing an action is not the same a getting a +1 to my die pool or even worth it.

This is not to mention other actions the hacker can do to you such as just bricking the device to make your gun not function and now you have to fight hand to hand or worse your eyes which is much more of a penalty than the +1 from your smart gun link or a free minor. Data spike can with only 3 success take your bonus away or do more to get rid of that bonus or cause you a penalty and turning wireless off doesn't seem to get rid of the damage already done.  so this also seems to make you more susceptible to taking a worse penalty than you would gain.

Yes I agree that their needs to be a wireless bonus for hackers to be able tot do something and make it fun for them but currently it seems like Wireless off is the answer rather than make yourself vulnerable.

As far as hackers being rare, yes by the fluff they are supposed to be but in mission play or adventures their is always few just to give the hacker more to do.

[Banshee]

It is not just spoof but for spoof specifically as far as I knew any command that could be given to the device could be spoofed. So Eject clip, turn the device off for Cybereyes. Having a Cyberarm throw something away. lots of stuff you could imagine. Explode a grenade, fire the weapon, like the stun baton on his side. Data jacks are used to DNI to a person and this imposes a feed over the persons eyes so they can preceive AR and such so you could spoof the Datajack to connect to the comlinks camera and then the attacker is seeing sideways or some such and not at the target he is trying to fire at. Each of these could impose a disadvantage that could taek you out of a combat until you fix it. maybe even loosing your actions to fix. So to me loosing an action is not the same a getting a +1 to my die pool or even worth it.

This is not to mention other actions the hacker can do to you such as just bricking the device to make your gun not function and now you have to fight hand to hand or worse your eyes which is much more of a penalty than the +1 from your smart gun link or a free minor. Data spike can with only 3 success take your bonus away or do more to get rid of that bonus or cause you a penalty and turning wireless off doesn't seem to get rid of the damage already done.  so this also seems to make you more susceptible to taking a worse penalty than you would gain.

Yes I agree that their needs to be a wireless bonus for hackers to be able tot do something and make it fun for them but currently it seems like Wireless off is the answer rather than make yourself vulnerable.

As far as hackers being rare, yes by the fluff they are supposed to be but in mission play or adventures their is always few just to give the hacker more to do.

That's what I thought you were going to say.

Well spoof command can only issue a single command, so the absolute worst a hacker can do is cause you to use a single action to reset then go wireless if need be.

So, as for risk vs reward I say it's negligible ... either as an inconvenience or potential penalty via data spike if you don't have a back up system and even then only  if you don't have a matrix specialist providing defense

[Redwulfe]

That's what I thought you were going to say.

Well spoof command can only issue a single command, so the absolute worst a hacker can do is cause you to use a single action to reset then go wireless if need be.

So, as for risk vs reward I say it's negligible ... either as an inconvenience or potential penalty via data spike if you don't have a back up system and even then only  if you don't have a matrix specialist providing defense

Unfortunately I just don't see it. None of the wireless bonuses are worth having my gun attacked or losing and action major or minor in combat. As the parties SAM it is my job to try and get the party out of combat alive by taking the heat or putting down the other combatants. losing actions or taking penalties to the oppositions hacker is not worth the wireless bonuses listed in the book.

Which wireless bonus do you think is worth the loss of an action/turn if they get lucky or putting Damage on my gear?

[Banshee]

That's what I thought you were going to say.

Well spoof command can only issue a single command, so the absolute worst a hacker can do is cause you to use a single action to reset then go wireless if need be.

So, as for risk vs reward I say it's negligible ... either as an inconvenience or potential penalty via data spike if you don't have a back up system and even then only  if you don't have a matrix specialist providing defense

Unfortunately I just don't see it. None of the wireless bonuses are worth having my gun attacked or losing and action major or minor in combat. As the parties SAM it is my job to try and get the party out of combat alive by taking the heat or putting down the other combatants. losing actions or taking penalties to the oppositions hacker is not worth the wireless bonuses listed in the book.

Which wireless bonus do you think is worth the loss of an action/turn if they get lucky or putting Damage on my gear?

Well just like it is the street sams job to be the heavy in combat it is the deckers job to make sure your not vulnerable.  So as the street sam it is your job to either make sure your are defended ... sometimes that may mean going wireless off. Ultimately it just a tactical choice depending on the resources you have.

[Michael Chandra]

Unfortunately I just don't see it. None of the wireless bonuses are worth having my gun attacked or losing and action major or minor in combat.

There's 1 big problem with this topic: You are risk-averse. And there's nothing wrong with that. But you being risk-averse doesn't mean the system is broken.

There are people willing to take gambles. There are those who do not. Wireless bonuses allow for people to take gambles. If you don't want to take the gamble, use throwbacks and stay offline with most of your gear, and you'll be fine. But asking people to convince you the system isn't broken, while it's simply that you are risk-averse, makes for a futile endeavour.

To me, the risk is usually worth it. To you, it never is. That is simply personality. Not system quality.

[Redwulfe]

Sorry I am not trying to hit a nerve.

First off I am not risk adverse, if I was I would play a decker and stay i the van. I am currently playing a Street Sam because people said that Armor in this game no longer offers protection and that because of that lethality was increased. So I decided to play some one who purposefully puts themselves in the line of fire. I am finding through play that this was not as accurate as people might think and through cover and such the game took on a more realistic combat in my mind and I am loving it. it is thrilling knowing that my can can actually die ad I am looking for ways to increase his suitability in any way I can. Hence looking at |Wireless bonuses and weighing if they are worth the risk.

Second I don't think the game is broken. Far from it. I think Catalyst, though is sore need of better editing, has improved each time they have stepped up to the plate to put out a shadowrun product. I am really liking this edition it is not currently my favorite but it is not bad in my mind.

I do however think we could get some optional rules that tweak the system a bit.

What I would like to have is a discussion with other Shadowrun players on the math behind the wireless bonuses versus the risks of having your wireless on and whether or not it is worth it.

Currently I don't see it for my 18 dice pool Street SAM. Protection form the decker may be worth the risk to gain the extra minors in the action economy but I am not convinced that for this character it is. It could be that The wireless bonuses are to give other characters who are not a specialized a boost and not for the SAM of the party at all and that is fine as well.

On the subject I am thinking it is always better to have your grenades off and if you need the bonus to actually take the three minors and the major to turn it on right before throwing it on your action. I say three minors because I am assuming you are taking cover, as you should.

The other thing that I think should be on is your comlink as party communication is very key n many infiltration ad missions and it being attack is worth the risk. Speaking of infiltration I would not go wireless on in infiltration because they will know my exact location but because if they see my hidden icons they will know an intruder is in the building which alerts them in the first place and that type of soft alert is not worth having my wireless on. Comlink is probably OK since that is a common enough item that a spider would just think it belonged to a worker. but chameleon suite or wired reflexes may be a dead give away.

One thing I do think should be cleared up in a FAQ or errata is that you don't get two free minor actions when switching your smartgun's firing mode. One for the base guns wireless bonus and one from the smartgun's wireless bonus. though I do find it amusing of going infinite by switching your gun mode rapidly. Just removing the line that talks about the bonus action from the Smartgun system solves this as they already get that form the base gun's wireless bonus.