[RogueNL]

So after taking the time to dig through the 6e Core, it's starting to make sense. I'm struggling with the start of a hack though.

Situation 1: let's say a decker is standing in front of someone and uses AR.

step 1 : Matrix Perception to see the icons of the person (?) or would the non-silent icons be visible? Matrix Perception says that you can use it to inspect an icon... but then i'd imagine that the icon "to inspect" would at least be there to begin with BUT "With a tie, you can perceive the item’s icon" so before the check...there's nothing?

step 2 : Pick the desired device for entry.

step 3 : Either Probe -> Backdoor Entry for stealth Admin Access or Brute Force for alarmed User/Admin access.

step 4: Do whatever you want on the host.

So far so good-ish. When using Probe and Backdoor. Would a Spider EVER be alerted to the access before further commands are used? When would a spider decide to "check things out" with a Patrol IC?

Situation 2 :

Decker is located in a building 75 meters away (so no noise), and is alerted by his team that there's a camera that's in the way.

Step 1: Decker dives into VR.

How does the hacker "move" towards the location of the building? does he just ... do it? Should I envision it as a "ghost" of the decker moving towards the team to see which icon is nearest so it knows which camera he needs to disable? After he moves towards the building : He needs to find the icon for the camera. Matrix perception has 2 options : "One would be to use it to search the publicly available information and databases for a hit on a particular subject. " or "The other way to use Matrix Perception would be to analyze one particular icon or search for a hidden icon." Would information on the camera be publicly available? same issues as in Situation 1 : how do you uncover the initial icon?

SO :

Question 1 : how do you uncover the initial icon to Matrix Perceive?

Question 2 : do you "move" to your target in VR to know which camera to hack?

[Banshee]

Short answer...

Answer 1: depends on the situation... is the icon a public icon not running silent (or hidden behind a host firewall)? Then no need to make a check to just see it. Want to know more about it, then make a check just like observing a physical object in detail.

If the icon is running silent or hidden then you don't see and need to look for it... make a check ... even if you know it has to be there somewhere

Answer 2: gets a bit trickier. The situation you described is most likely a camera inside of a host... you would need to be inside before you can spot it and interact with it. By inside I mean have hacked access. The other option is to actually physically be with your team and you can direct connect to said camera. 

If camera is not inside the host a simple matrix perception can be used to identify which icon is the right one.

[RogueNL]

Short answer...

Answer 1: depends on the situation... is the icon a public icon not running silent (or hidden behind a host firewall)? Then no need to make a check to just see it. Want to know more about it, then make a check just like observing a physical object in detail.
If the icon is running silent or hidden then you don't see and need to look for it... make a check ... even if you know it has to be there somewhere

I thought this would be the way to go but got confused by this part from the Core :
Matrix Perception 
A successful test gives you information about the target. With a tie, you can perceive the item’s icon

Answer 2: gets a bit trickier. The situation you described is most likely a camera inside of a host... you would need to be inside before you can spot it and interact with it. By inside I mean have hacked access. The other option is to actually physically be with your team and you can direct connect to said camera. 

If camera is not inside the host a simple matrix perception can be used to identify which icon is the right one.

Ok so if the camera is connected a host :
I need access to the host before I can see the Camera icon at all.
The host would be something like the building as a whole... right?
The camera-host wouldn't be Matrix facing so you'll have to go through the host first.
Let's say that the Camera is connected (slaved?) to Host B.
We'd first need to gain access to a matrix facing host  (Host A) then go through Host A to Host B (presuming that there's a connection between the 2).
After we're connected to Host B , we can see the camera icon.
Correct?

In a "normal" run , what would or could these Matrix facing hosts normally be? If you're trying to gain access to the security in an office building for instance.

If you're with your team, are there any pieces of equipment to let you access the camera / network directly without using a Matrix facing host?

[Banshee]

Matrix perception... yes that is bad editing at work and is only supposed to reference hidden icons

Matrix facing is usually only the parts that the host owners want to allow Joe Public to use... like directories or point of sale interfaces etc

Well depending on how much value the owner puts on there matrix security goes a long way. For some one who bothers with setting up a nested host then yes the security would probably be slaved to host B and you have it right.

"Direct connection": i left thus a bit fuzzy on purpose with the intent to build on it when I much more word space in a matrix supplement,  but in general... if the device is wireless you do not anything special other than being in close proximity... I would say 10 meters or less but thus is just so you can justify being able to pick its signal out without difficulty at that point (I really see no point in overthinking things and having a situation of ... but I can physically see the camera why can't I detect it? Worse case maybe make a matrix perception check) but the point is you can bypass host A at that point ... if not wireless you need a datatap of some type.

[RogueNL]

Thanks for clearing up the Perception thing!

So in that last part about bypassing host A: if you're close enough to the camera, you could bypass host A and get direct access to host B?
And datataps aren't available in 6e yet right?

[Banshee]

Thanks for clearing up the Perception thing!

So in that last part about bypassing host A: if you're close enough to the camera, you could bypass host A and get direct access to host B?
And datataps aren't available in 6e yet right?

No problem... I have no problem discussing things that I wrote so feel free to come here with any matrix questions... I can at least let know what I was thinking

Correct connecting directly to the camera let's bypass host A since the camera itself is slaved to host B.

Data taps are on page 269

[RogueNL]

 
Wow, great, think I'm finally getting the feeling that I'm understanding it!

Last thing :
If decker B , has a commlink (non silent)from Street Sam A slaved to Decker's B Deck, and Decker A is looking at the Street Sam in AR ; does Decker A see the commlink? Does he see that it's slaved to the deck of Decker B?

[Banshee]

Nobody running silent ... yes

[Banshee]

Would someone who is following this and the same topic on reddit please tell LeVentNoir to quit being a bone head. I refuse to make an account over there just to argue with toxic personalities

If read the rest of the matrix perception paragraphs on page 178 and then add the word "hidden" to the single sentence he keeps quiting from page 182 then his argument is null and void.

Yes it is very much piss poor editing,  yes I should have and could have written better ... but come on man. It's not some miraculous leap in logic and all you have to do is NOT over think it.

[MercilessMing]

"Direct connection": i left thus a bit fuzzy on purpose with the intent to build on it when I much more word space in a matrix supplement,  but in general... if the device is wireless you do not anything special other than being in close proximity... I would say 10 meters or less but thus is just so you can justify being able to pick its signal out without difficulty at that point (I really see no point in overthinking things and having a situation of ... but I can physically see the camera why can't I detect it? Worse case maybe make a matrix perception check) but the point is you can bypass host A at that point ... if not wireless you need a datatap of some type.

So glad you said this, because when I was reading about the camera being undetectable due to it being slaved to a host, I was getting a headache. 
Can that awareness of slaved nodes extend to other devices on the detector's network?  In other words: I'm a decker in control of my team's comms.  If of my slaved comms is in that direct connect threshold, shouldn't I be able to exploit that to access host b?  Or does it need to be my own device?

[Banshee]

"Direct connection": i left thus a bit fuzzy on purpose with the intent to build on it when I much more word space in a matrix supplement,  but in general... if the device is wireless you do not anything special other than being in close proximity... I would say 10 meters or less but thus is just so you can justify being able to pick its signal out without difficulty at that point (I really see no point in overthinking things and having a situation of ... but I can physically see the camera why can't I detect it? Worse case maybe make a matrix perception check) but the point is you can bypass host A at that point ... if not wireless you need a datatap of some type.

So glad you said this, because when I was reading about the camera being undetectable due to it being slaved to a host, I was getting a headache. 
Can that awareness of slaved nodes extend to other devices on the detector's network?  In other words: I'm a decker in control of my team's comms.  If of my slaved comms is in that direct connect threshold, shouldn't I be able to exploit that to access host b?  Or does it need to be my own device?

I would allow that your team either needs to setup a data tap for you (distance beyond and the data tap would still have noise in that case) or you need to be able direct connect yourself

After all physical infiltration should come with some kind of risk reward bonus

[Finstersang]

Answer 2: gets a bit trickier. The situation you described is most likely a camera inside of a host... you would need to be inside before you can spot it and interact with it. By inside I mean have hacked access. The other option is to actually physically be with your team and you can direct connect to said camera. 

That part emphasized above is really a bit irky, as MercilessMing pointed out as well.

If the camera is connected to the host via cable: Yeah, sure. You need to get inside the host to find it. But if the camera is wireless-active, there should still be some kind of signal presence. Ergo, it should at least be possible to find out that it´s there and to find out out the next step to hack the thing without too much guesswork. Meaning: Finding the host and getting access.

My tipp as a GM in this case: Treat the camera like a hidden icon, defending with the host rating - and its severely underused Sleaze rating! - against Matrix perception tests (the host masks the camera signal for protection, yadda yadda). Success gives you the information that there´s indeed a wireless device which is secured inside a host (which you will also find out with a success on that action) and that you need to access the host if you want to hack it.

Note that this is not RAW/RAI, but an eyeballed houserule. Works pretty well, tho.

Also note that this setup (wireless cameras slaved to a host) is probably not the most common for a security setup anyways - precisely because of the reasons detailed above. However, wireless cameras are faster to employ for improvised perimeters and some security devices (f.i. drones for example) are obviously hard to employ with cables attached to them. So this really is a sitation you will run into rather often. Better have a clear path for hackers to handle this.

"Direct connection": i left thus a bit fuzzy on purpose with the intent to build on it when I much more word space in a matrix supplement,  but in general... if the device is wireless you do not anything special other than being in close proximity... I would say 10 meters or less but thus is just so you can justify being able to pick its signal out without difficulty at that point (I really see no point in overthinking things and having a situation of ... but I can physically see the camera why can't I detect it? Worse case maybe make a matrix perception check) but the point is you can bypass host A at that point ... if not wireless you need a datatap of some type.

Short-range wireless direct connections: Now that would really be awesome, would love to see that! 

A little suggestion to tie that all together (and also stitch this little mess back up nicely):

• The range for Short-range wireless connections is ithe device rating in meters. If you only have a Meta Link, keep your stuff nearby 
• A Network can have a an unlimited amount of Short-range wireless direct connections (SRWDC). All of these are protected by the PAN. Basically, it´s the 6th world equivalent of Bluetooth.
• A Network also can have a (theoretically) unlimited amount of "traditiona" wired direct connections. These have the additional benefit that hackers can´t find them in the Matrix without getting access to the Network.
• For longer ranges, you need to slave the device to be still considered part of the Network (would that be called a WAN at this point? Probably.) and get the proper protection. Think of slaves as the "outposts" of a Network. The limit for the number of "real" slaves is based on the Data Processing Attribute of the Master (if its not an RCC).
• This also means that you can enhance the overall reach of your Network (and its SRWDCs!) through clever slaving and daisy-chaining. F.i., a hacker could slave the commlink of the Infiltration Expert to his/her own Cyberdeck. The Infiltration Expert could then sneak the Commlink on site to establish a (shortrange or wireless) direct connection to a secure device.

[Redwulfe]

I like those thoughts much better. That is, the thought that the Host makes icons invisible in VR and that the Host Event Horizon is in full effect there, but it has no effect if you are in the vicinity of the camera and can literally see it even if you can't physically touch it.

So basically in AR you can see past the Host Event Horizon because you are physically seeing the device and therefore much more able to find its icon. It is still slaved to a host and hidden you just need to now Matrix perception to reveal the icon and hack it with it having the benefit of the hosts ratings.

This puts a stronger emphasis on physical infiltration of the Decker. Especially when they don't want to risk hacking the Host or hack through multiple hosts.

[MercilessMing]

My tip as a GM in this case: Treat the camera like a hidden icon, defending with the host rating - and its severely underused Sleaze rating! - against Matrix perception tests (the host masks the camera signal for protection, yadda yadda). Success gives you the information that there´s indeed a wireless device which is secured inside a host (which you will also find out with a success on that action) and that you need to access the host if you want to hack it.

Note that this is not RAW/RAI, but an eyeballed houserule. Works pretty well, tho.

That seems exactly RAW if one ditches the idea of wireless devices being undetectable on the matrix because they're "inside" a host.