[Sugarpink]

Well, just to guide Banshee on writing that FAQ, I'll post some things that I am not 100% clear on here anyway.

Let's take the following scenario: We have a building, with a small security network (one single host) that controls the building's cameras, locks, etc. So, all these devices are part of the host's private space.

1) What do I see, if I just look into the Matrix, without Matrix Perception? Nothing (Can hosts run silent?)? Just the host?
2) If I roll Matrix Perception to find the Hidden Network, I would roll Electronics + Intuition vs. Hosts Willpower + Sleaze... if I succeed, do I now also see all the devices managed by the host, or just the host?
3) If I can see the icons that are part of the host, without being in the host, can I hack them while ignoring the host? And, if I can do so, do they defend with the hosts attributes or with their own?
4) If I can hack icons without entering the host, I guess the big advantage of hacking a host is to gain access to the whole network at once... instead of hacking device by device... correct?

Edit: I have to add that in my campaigns Decking comes up way more often as a means of messing with security than for actual Data Steals. That's why I want to really understand the relationship of Hosts and their Devices correctly.

[Banshee]

Well, just to guide Banshee on writing that FAQ, I'll post some things that I am not 100% clear on here anyway.

Let's take the following scenario: We have a building, with a small security network (one single host) that controls the building's cameras, locks, etc. So, all these devices are part of the host's private space.

1) What do I see, if I just look into the Matrix, without Matrix Perception? Nothing (Can hosts run silent?)? Just the host?
2) If I roll Matrix Perception to find the Hidden Network, I would roll Electronics + Intuition vs. Hosts Willpower + Sleaze... if I succeed, do I now also see all the devices managed by the host, or just the host?
3) If I can see the icons that are part of the host, without being in the host, can I hack them while ignoring the host? And, if I can do so, do they defend with the hosts attributes or with their own?
4) If I can hack icons without entering the host, I guess the big advantage of hacking a host is to gain access to the whole network at once... instead of hacking device by device... correct?

Edit: I have to add that in my campaigns Decking comes up way more often as a means of messing with security than for actual Data Steals. That's why I want to really understand the relationship of Hosts and their Devices correctly.

OK so yeah at least some of this will be in the far but for now...

1.you would see the host plus whatever icons they choose to show. Yes the host can run silent but it would be the host and everything it is protecting.
2.this a bit more complicated and will get more attention later ... in general though just the host .. I want add seeing "inside" with additional successes
3.you can never ignore the host. Anything linked to the host will always defend with the host attributes. To be determined on the hack ... needs reviewed and then approved but I say you take outsider actions on anything you can detect.
4. Well to do anything other than an outsider action you have to enter the host

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I think Banshee's seen my in-depth thoughts on this expressed in other channels

But for public-consumption's sake... I'll boil it down to saying the more like an Event Horizon the into/out of Host relationship works, the less "well, what if?"s you have to rationalize....

[Sugarpink]

3.you can never ignore the host. Anything linked to the host will always defend with the host attributes. To be determined on the hack ... needs reviewed and then approved but I say you take outsider actions on anything you can detect.

Maybe I misunderstood an earlier statement:

My intention is not any sort of immunity in any fashion but more of a hidden behind the Host "event horizon". Which requires actually spending time and actions either making matrix perception checks to see what's on the other side or gaining access.

If I can't take any actions on them, or only Outsider Actions, that's actually what I'd call "the devices have immunity" (until the host is breached).

[Xenon]

If I can't take any actions on them, or only Outsider Actions, that's actually what I'd call "the devices have immunity" (until the host is breached).

To take matrix actions that require User or Admin access you first [always] need to have User or Admin access....

[Sugarpink]

If I can't take any actions on them, or only Outsider Actions, that's actually what I'd call "the devices have immunity" (until the host is breached).

To take matrix actions that require User or Admin access you first [always] need to have User or Admin access....

Yes, but. If I can spot the camera slaved to the host, without having access to the host, then I could run Probe + Backdoor Entry on that camera alone. Those are both Outsider Actions after all.

Edit: However, I presume that even if I could and would do that, it would still defend with the host's attributes.

[Hobbes]

If I can't take any actions on them, or only Outsider Actions, that's actually what I'd call "the devices have immunity" (until the host is breached).

To take matrix actions that require User or Admin access you first [always] need to have User or Admin access....

Yes, but. If I can spot the camera slaved to the host, without having access to the host, then I could run Probe + Backdoor Entry on that camera alone. Those are both Outsider Actions after all.

Edit: However, I presume that even if I could and would do that, it would still defend with the host's attributes.

You'd Probe the Host to gain access to the network, then do whatever you're going to do to the Camera Icon.  Both checks are opposed by the Hosts Attributes.

Outsider actions such as Spoof or a couple of the TM's Complex Forms would let you target the Camera Icon.  But only after you've spotted it (opposed by the Host's attributes) and the Camera Icon would defend with the Host's Attributes as well vs whatever Matrix action or CF you're trying.

Going after the Camera specifically is less time, but getting Access to the Host gives you a lot more options.  If you need to get past multiple layers of technological security you're better off with Probe.  If there are only one or two things to beat and you're in a hurry, do the Outsider only actions.

[Sugarpink]

So that essentially means, Probe + Backdoor Entry against a device is usually only useful (if ever) if that device isn't part of a PAN or Host. As you'd usually probe on the network instead (to gain more permissions for essentially the same amount of effort).

[Hobbes]

I think the intention is you can't Probe a Device on a PAN or Host, you have to Probe the network its on.  But yes, you've got the bottom line as I understand it.

And honestly as a GM, I wouldn't bother rolling dice on an unprotected device.  It's like having the Physical Adept roll to climb a 4 foot chain link fence, or the Rigger take a corner at 30 mph, or the Face hire a joyboy/joygirl.  It's a gimme.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I can see some use in taking the unfun out of a potential abuse/misuse of the targeting rules by having a GM say "you can't hack the maglock, because you're not in the host therefore you can't even SEE the maglock's icon".  Absolutely.  But, as far as I'm concerned, the language as is already covers that.  Any devices that are meant to be interacted with by people who are not simultaneously logged into some host should be perceptible outside that host.  It's not only common sense, it's already RAW without any changes/clarifications.

But on the flipside, certain things absolutely SHOULD be behind an event horizon.  What's the reason the enter host matrix action even exists if you can go and do everything from outside the host, anyway?   Nested architecture is a thing in this edition (for example, see the Matrix Host Structure diagram on pg 186).  In that example, surely you can't perceive the Security or Office Hosts from the matrix, much less perceive anything inside them.  You can't do away with the Event Horizon completely.  It has to exist.  And since it has to exist, it may as well have as few exceptions as possible for simplicity's sake.

[Hobbes]

Enter Host is for getting at File Icons and the Nested Hosts.  Hash Check is User, not outsider, no other way to find a file Icon normally.

I'll put it to you this way, why have Nested Hosts if everything is behind a Host Event Horizon in the first place?

You know my thoughts on this one already as well  ; )