[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Spirits are literally unable to have certain thoughts (like attacking the summoner)

I personally think that is silly. Spirits are damn smart - they can think literally whatever the wish to dwell upon. They just might not be able to act on their own thoughts of their own free will, which is the crux here.

Well, the distinction between being unable to THINK about attacking its summoner and being unable to ACT on the thought of attacking its summoner is moot.  Either way, it's not going to "decide" to attack its summoner. 

[Lormyr]

Well it might be very much not moot, especially if one plans to make an argument about their potentially alien mind set like you outlined above.

But to be specific I think the following scenario is perfectly valid, and it has been ran this way at literally every table I've ever played in Missions:

Summoner: These runners upset me. Get em, spirit! (service 1)
Runner Mage: Nah. Hey spirit, control thoughts - you think and act on "I am really tried of this mortal ordering me around. I think I will engulf him for 2 turns to let him reconsider his attitude.". Spirit will obey, because successful casting of the spell dictates that is what happens.
Summoner: Now engulfed. WTF spirit, why? Stop at once and resume getting those runners! (service 2). Spirit will attempt to obey, and get it's second roll to try to shake off the rest of the control thought hits, acting as the result of that test (still affected by spell or following summoner orders) dictates.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Every missions table you've played at had GMs and players who were all fine with the idea of a spirit deciding to immolate its summoner instead of complying with the order it was given?  Presumably this is something they're fine with spirits doing even when NOT under effects of Control Thoughts?

[Lormyr]

Doing it of it's own free will, no.

But the entire effect of that spell is "magic usurps your mind and will, and causes you to believe and act as the caster desires".

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Doing it of it's own free will, no.

But the entire effect of that spell is "magic usurps your mind and will, and causes you to believe and act as the caster desires".

But that's the rub.  Spirits DON'T have the same sort of free will to usurp in the first place. They're bound to obey as the summoner expends services.  If it cannot decide to just ignore orders and immolate its own summoner, then it can't THINK it decided to do the same.

[Lormyr]

Right. So under normal conditions with that spell, the victim will think the thing, then act on the thing, all the while believing it did so totally on it's own until the spell ends.

That part does get a little wonky for spirits, who do know they cannot for example attack their summoner - but the spell is very explicit in what happens when you succumb to it, so they will do it anyhow, but the GM might have to fudge the thinking of how the spirit reconciles being able to take an action it otherwise would think it can't.

A mundane example: A spellcaster uses control thoughts to make a scrawny dude think he totally flip that car over, and to proceed with that idea. Dude should know damn well there is no chance that can happen, but the game mechanic effect of that spell supercedes what he thinks he knows and forces him to go for it.

Edit: Further example. Normally, players get to decide what their characters think, and what their characters do. This spell also supercedes that. It pretty much breaks all the rules, both in game and 4th wall. Most mind control spells in most games do.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Yes.  There are things you cannot do because of physics, and things you cannot do because of (in game) metaphysics.

You can make scrawny dude think he can lift the car and put out his back trying.  The spirit simply CANNOT even attempt certain actions because it is prohibited by the rules of magic itself.  More magic isn't going to change that in my view.

[Lormyr]

We can certainly agree to disagree.

But on a related note, I just finished flipping back through the spirit section of SR5. Does anyone actually know where it states spirits cannot (or will not?) attack their summoners? I cannot seem to locate it, and wanted to examine the specific wording for potential argument material.

[Wu Jen]

It might be easier to cast influence or control thoughts on the mage that summoned it, if present and available as a target, and have them think, "I don't need this spirit. I can do this myself!" or something else that would cause the mage to dismiss the spirit.

Wouldn't kind of be against the 'spirit (pardon the pun) of the game' to have Control Actions affect the spirit in the first place?

Mage #1: Summon force 6 spirit get 2 services, pick up box a and move it there (1st service), pick up box b and move it to the other place. (2nd service.)

Mage #2 Summon force 6 spirit get 2 services, use 1 service as normal then have another mage cast control actions on said spirit to get it to do manual labor services or even combat. Sure it would be a pissed off spirit but the other mage was the one that decided to take it for a joyride not the summoner.

Basically control actions could lead to what otherwise would be counted as a service normally.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Yes, using Control Thoughts on the summoner WOULD work.  Doesn't matter if the summoner expended a service due to shenanigans, as far as the summoning pact goes, spending a service is spending a service.

OTOH, using Control Actions to force the summoner to order the spirit would not work, imo.  The empathic link is still in effect, and the spirit knows the order is not truly intended through that link.  Not only that, you have to spend an action to force the victim to spend an action, and under the principle of they use your qualities rather than their own you don't have any owed services to expend. Two reasons this avenue wouldn't work.

Of course, all that presumes the summoner is present to be hit with a spell.

[Lormyr]

I personally would have no problem with a mage using control thoughts to effectively get extra services, because that is clearly a place where the spirit abuse index would come into play. Is it doable? Sure, if the timing is right, and obviously it would be very limited in duration. Is it worth getting a shit rep in the spirit world to do? Most likely not.

[Xenon]

It might be easier to cast influence or control thoughts on the mage ...

Yes.