[Hobbes]

The default in SR is that everyone is in AR so the Security Guard would have a Persona.


Edit: in fact, you don't even need DNI to have a Persona.  If your Commlink is on, you've got a Persona Icon and you can interact with the Matrix by looking at the Commlink Screen and tapping commands in.

[Hobbes]

Quick question on daisy-chaining commlinks to have the team decker protect them:  What does this look like in the matrix?  Let's say we've got four PANs of four people, each with various devices.  When networking these together, do we have just one PAN now?  Can the slaved comms be said to have their own personas anymore?

You may have a single PAN from a Network security Point of View, just the "top level" would need to be hacked.  But there would still be four Persona Icons, and the assorted Device Icons.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I get the instances where things obvious to normal perception are also obvious to matrix perception.  It's remembering the stuff that's obvious to matrix perc but not to regular perception that I have trouble with.  It's not akin to hearing through a wall, more like 100m x-ray vision.

well the wall acts in a similar way, though.  While you can pick up the matrix signal through the wall (subject to noise and wireless negation, of course) you can't correlate those icons to physical objects just as easily as with physical perception unless you CAN physically perceive through that wall.

Mungo's looking at the wireless signals of a sec guard 5 meters away on the other side of a glass window?  At 0 net hits, he can pick up those icons and because he can see effortlessly through the glass, he can correlate those icons (AROs) to physical objects.

Make no change to the scenario other than the wall has no transparent window, and suddenly Mungo needs that 1+ net hit to be able to identify what those icons all are.

It only matters when you don't have those physical contextual clues.  Like when you're in VR, or you're hacking someone from beyond physical line of sight.  In those cases... yeah I'd say a "no test success", if you get one, only gives you the most basic result.  1+ net hit requires an actual roll, in my view.

yes, this

Soooo, if HackerX is in the flesh looking at someone's PAN (via AR), he can readily identify what the various devices are.  However, if HackerX is in VR, he would instead see the person's persona and not necessarily know what devices are present?  So, in the case of VR, HackerX would need to perform a Matrix Perception test?  Is this correct?

He'd still see all the devices' matrix signals.  Still for free without any test necessary, if the physical distance between HackerX and the devices is still short (and again assuming a host event horizon isn't in play).  However without any physical cues to correlate AROs with real-world objects, the signals all require 1+ net hit to identify in particular.

Now that I think about it, the security guard would not have a persona since he's not also in VR.  So, what exactly does the target look like to a person who is in VR but their target is not?

All matrix users have personas, whether they're in AR or VR.  So, yes, the security guard still has a persona even if he's not in VR.  Frankly, the difference wouldn't even be obvious to HackerX if he were in VR, unable to see whether the Security guard is up and standing or slumped and comatose.  Although a persona's current matrix user mode is absolutely a valid thing to learn via Matrix Perception on the icon... at whatever threshold of hits the GM deems appropriate. (personally, I'd say 2+ net hits ought to be about right, if you didn't ask the question, or 1+ net hits if you specifically asked that question)

Quick question on daisy-chaining commlinks to have the team decker protect them:  What does this look like in the matrix?  Let's say we've got four PANs of four people, each with various devices.  When networking these together, do we have just one PAN now?  Can the slaved comms be said to have their own personas anymore?

I hate to imagine it, I'd rather play where there just are no number of device limits.

But if put on the spot: one of those commlinks is subsumed into the Persona (as normal), and all the extras are just extra devices that happen to be commlinks.

[Hobbes]

But if put on the spot: one of those commlinks is subsumed into the Persona (as normal), and all the extras are just extra devices that happen to be commlinks.

Still need Persona Icons to do Matrix things (generally).  The Persona Icons aren't subsumed when protected by a Host, they wouldn't nessisarily be subsumed when protected by a Cyberjack or better Commlink or Technomancer with the appropriate ability.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Edit: in fact, you don't even need DNI to have a Persona.  If your Commlink is on, you've got a Persona Icon and you can interact with the Matrix by looking at the Commlink Screen and tapping commands in.

Per the clarifications on how AR Vertigo works... I do believe that if you're using a commlink the way we use smartphones in the real world (physically holding it up to your ear, physically tapping it to manipulate apps) you're not even "in" AR matrix user mode.  At that level of luddite interaction, I don't believe you would have a persona.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

But if put on the spot: one of those commlinks is subsumed into the Persona (as normal), and all the extras are just extra devices that happen to be commlinks.

Still need Persona Icons to do Matrix things (generally).  The Persona Icons aren't subsumed when protected by a Host, they wouldn't nessisarily be subsumed when protected by a Cyberjack or better Commlink or Technomancer with the appropriate ability.

Yeah I think it's still technically unclear whether there is any difference between commlink icon and Persona.  Is it POSSIBLE to dataspike the commlink specifically, without affecting the Persona matrix CM?  I don't think it should be possible, but also I don't think it's ever specified.

[Hobbes]

Edit: in fact, you don't even need DNI to have a Persona.  If your Commlink is on, you've got a Persona Icon and you can interact with the Matrix by looking at the Commlink Screen and tapping commands in.

Per the clarifications on how AR Vertigo works... I do believe that if you're using a commlink the way we use smartphones in the real world (physically holding it up to your ear, physically tapping it to manipulate apps) you're not even "in" AR matrix user mode.  At that level of luddite interaction, I don't believe you would have a persona.

Have to have a Persona Icon to do Matrix things otherwise AR Deckers get super dumb and just use an old fashioned keyboard and lol at IC and Spiders.  "Can't get me, I'm in a Turtle!" 

RAW Matrix Actions are based around Matrix Attributes.  You have to have some kind of Icon with Matrix Attributes doing Matrix things.  If you want to call it a Device Icon for a Commlink, sure, whatever.  There isn't a meaningful mechanical difference between a Persona Icon in AR and a Commlink Device Icon stand in that I can think of off the top of my head.

It does all the things a Persona Icon does, has the same mechanical stats as your Persona Icon does.  Call it whatever you'd like, I'm calling it a Persona Icon.  :  ) 

[Hobbes]

But if put on the spot: one of those commlinks is subsumed into the Persona (as normal), and all the extras are just extra devices that happen to be commlinks.

Still need Persona Icons to do Matrix things (generally).  The Persona Icons aren't subsumed when protected by a Host, they wouldn't nessisarily be subsumed when protected by a Cyberjack or better Commlink or Technomancer with the appropriate ability.

Yeah I think it's still technically unclear whether there is any difference between commlink icon and Persona.  Is it POSSIBLE to dataspike the commlink specifically, without affecting the Persona matrix CM?  I don't think it should be possible, but also I don't think it's ever specified.

If the Persona was formed with the Commlink (Cyberdeck, RCC) it's the same Icon I would think.

[j2klbs]

Yeah I think it's still technically unclear whether there is any difference between commlink icon and Persona.  Is it POSSIBLE to dataspike the commlink specifically, without affecting the Persona matrix CM?  I don't think it should be possible, but also I don't think it's ever specified.

If the Persona was formed with the Commlink (Cyberdeck, RCC) it's the same Icon I would think.

In my imagination, if a user is carrying a commlink but not using it's AR/VR capabilities, then on the matrix it would just appear as a device icon (not a persona).  As it moved around, the icon for the commlink would just bob around. 

[Xenon]

...maybe in the next sentence stating what he sees in this overlay

There are potentially hundred of different electronic devices and files networked to any regular PAN.
If you wish you can choose to see all of them at once... but this tend to be a bit overwhelming.
Most people instead choose to filter out icons that they are not particularly interested in at the moment.

According to what we've been saying, he already knows what the devices are...

He knows that it is "some sort of firearm". Iconography is very intuitive and helpful when it comes to things like this.
This is no different from if the street samurai would have just glanced over the guard using his regular perception.

SR6 p. 173 Icons
Icons generally follow guidelines to resemble the class of object they represent.

Looking at the icons more in detail reveal more detail, such as the weapon being "a Colt America L36 light pistol".
But this would the street samurai also find out if he spend an observe in detail action with his regular perception.

You understand the difference between what is immediately obvious that you pick up when just glancing over the scenery and what you can find out if you spend the time and effort to observe something in detail?

In most cases you can just treat matrix perception as you would treat regular perception...

...the security guard would not have a persona since he's not also in VR. 

You will normally show up with a matrix persona icon as soon as you connected to the matrix (no matter if you are in AR or VR). Most people you run into on the street (like Bob the security guard) will pretty much always be connected to the matrix (= having a PAN / a persona icon).

Quick question on daisy-chaining commlinks to have the team decker protect them:  What does this look like in the matrix?

Each commlink, cyberdeck or RCC used to access the matrix with typically represent a person. No matter if they are part of a larger network or not. The Iconography state that they will be represented by some sort of sapient being;

SR6 p. 173 Icons
Icons that represent personas (see Personas, Devices, and Attributes, below) are supposed to be some sort of sapient being, though that can still get pretty wild; cat-headed people, humanoid trees, and shapeshifting robots are all forms you might encounter, along with the (relatively rare) people who just like to look like themselves.

Yeah I think it's still technically unclear whether there is any difference between commlink icon and Persona.  Is it POSSIBLE to dataspike the commlink specifically, without affecting the Persona matrix CM? 

It seem as if the persona's CM will be the same CM as the device (commlik, RCC, cyberdeck) used to access the matrix with. If this specific device (=your persona) is bricked then you will be booted out of the matrix (possible suffering dump shock).

There isn't a meaningful mechanical difference between a Persona Icon in AR and a Commlink Device Icon

As I see it....

A wireless enabled but unattended and unused commlink will be represented by a small device icon (that visually probably look similar to that of a small smartphone). It is immediately obvious that this is a device.

A wireless enabled commlink that someone is actually using to access the matrix with will be represented by the users's matrix persona - which look like a human sized sapient being of sorts. It is immediately obvious that this represent a persona (but I guess it might be tricky to tell if it is actually a real user, an agent program, a sprite or an IC etc)

In my imagination, if a user is carrying a commlink but not using it's AR/VR capabilities, then on the matrix it would just appear as a device icon (not a persona).  As it moved around, the icon for the commlink would just bob around. 

Even back in 2020 most people were connected to the internet via their smartphones 24/7.
Not often someone would not be "logged on" to their smartphone and just carry it with them as dead weight.

It is pretty safe to assume that most people in 2080 will be connected to the matrix....
You kinda need to be if you want to see augmented reality and if you wish to broadcast your SIN etc.

This is from SR5, but I don't think this part changed:

SR5 p. 222 Life with a commlink
Stores have their logos blazoned in 3D above their door, restaurants offer animated menus complete with tantalizing images of their food, street names hover over every intersection, decorators use AR objects to spruce up interiors, all viewable in AR for anyone who has the capability, which is pretty much everybody. The unintended side effect is that things can look a bit dingy when you turn off your AR display, but that’s the price of progress.

[j2klbs]

SR5 p. 222 Life with a commlink
Stores have their logos blazoned in 3D above their door, restaurants offer animated menus complete with tantalizing images of their food, street names hover over every intersection, decorators use AR objects to spruce up interiors, all viewable in AR for anyone who has the capability, which is pretty much everybody. The unintended side effect is that things can look a bit dingy when you turn off your AR display, but that’s the price of progress.

Great reference!  Thanks!  And while almost all are walking around with AR on, a few might not.  Perhaps they are technophobes, get dizzy from all the ARO's, etc.  In that case, I think there is just a bobbing device icon. 

[j2klbs]

He knows that it is "some sort of firearm". Iconography is very intuitive and helpful when it comes to things like this.
This is no different from if the street samurai would have just glanced over the guard using his regular perception.

SR6 p. 173 Icons
Icons generally follow guidelines to resemble the class of object they represent.

Looking at the icons more in detail reveal more detail, such as the weapon being "a Colt America L36 light pistol".
But this would the street samurai also find out if he spend an observe in detail action with his regular perception.

This makes sense.  I don't think "class of object" is ever defined somewhere, so I guess we would need to use our best judgement?  For example, if I casually glanced at someone, I could easily detect the difference between a light pistol and a rocket launcher, but maybe not between a light pistol and heavy pistol.  Although, at a glance I could see the difference between a hold-out pistol and a heavy pistol.  So, I get what you are saying but it seems to me that "some sort of firearm" is too broad.

Alternately, a GM I suppose could group devices into categories of objects like ...

Weapon: melee, projectile, firearms, grenades, rockets, missiles, etc.
Weapon Accessory: smartlink, imaging scope, silencer, etc.
Armor: armor mods, chameleon suit, riot shield, etc.
Augmentation: cyberware, bioware, etc.
Vehicle/Drone: Ares Roadmaster, Cessna c750, MCT Hornet, etc.
Sensory Device: optical/auditory devices, sensors, etc.
Tool: survival gear, B&E gear, biotech, etc.
Other Electronic: anything not belonging to any other category

[Xenon]

I don't think "class of object" is ...

Basic Matrix protocols require device icons to provide some hint of their real-life function. A firearm’s icon looks like a weapon (even if that weapon is a tomahawk, like the icon of the Super Warhawk pistol), a vehicle’s icon looks like a vehicle (often in the form of a miniature version of the real deal, but the Ares Mobmaster riot control vehicle, for example, is famous for its unorthodox Roman chariot icon complete with reins to drive the vehicle), a lock’s icon looks like a lock (but even if it is a hightech maglock the device icon might for example have the form of an old school padlock), a refrigerator looks like a cold box for food, etc. The restrictions on devices are typically not as stringent as on personas, as long as form suggests function at a glance.

[j2klbs]

Quick question on daisy-chaining commlinks to have the team decker protect them:  What does this look like in the matrix?

Each commlink, cyberdeck or RCC used to access the matrix with typically represent a person. No matter if they are part of a larger network or not. The Iconography state that they will be represented by some sort of sapient being;

Follow-up question on daisy-chaining.  Wouldn't this strategy have the added benefit that if one wanted to gain User/Admin access to the PAN, they would need to access each nested PAN in sequence?  So, if Commlink-D networked to Commlink-C to Commlink-B to Commlink-A, then HackerX would have to Brute Force into A, then B, then C, then D before getting Admin access to D?

[Xenon]

While not shadowrun, this video might still give you an idea of what augmented reality might look like:

https://vimeo.com/166807261