[squee_nabob]

 +1 vote for making the hacking cap Natural Program + Natural Skill. The way Logic + Skill hurts non-Logic TMs is crippling. It limits them to 20 dice on any test, while Logic TMs will be the only way to get more. You will also see no pure TMs because they will splash ware for the bonuses (pushed, for example). As it is now, at least Charisma and Intuition TMs are debatably equal and logic TMs are not as good but worth a mention (specifically you compromise your ability to do matrix stuff for very small increases in real world ability).

[Tsuzua]

+1 vote for making the hacking cap Natural Program + Natural Skill. The way Logic + Skill hurts non-Logic TMs is crippling. It limits them to 20 dice on any test, while Logic TMs will be the only way to get more. You will also see no pure TMs because they will splash ware for the bonuses (pushed, for example). As it is now, at least Charisma and Intuition TMs are debatably equal and logic TMs are not as good but worth a mention (specifically you compromise your ability to do matrix stuff for very small increases in real world ability).

I will point out that squee is talking about how logic technomancers will want genetic optimization (Logic) to increase the cap.  Then they'll jam in stuff like PuSHeD and Cerebral Boosters 3 as well since it doesn't cost them anything more. 

[Tsuzua]

Some more suggestions:
1.) Allow PCs to buy Betaware and maybe even deltaware.  I'm not sure why you can't buy them now besides legacy.  If you want, once he hits Prime Runner Status, my character, Professor Xerxes can run the PC deltaware clinic.

2.) Remove the anti-DocWagon question.  There isn't a reason for it to be there but legacy.

[squee_nabob]

Put the 3rd season diagnostics question back in. It was useful.

[Tsuzua]

I suggest allowing the Medical Technology section in Augmentation 124-5.  The main reason is to allow one to heal a number of boxes equal to skill rating or medkit rating.  This will allow a first aid 1 + medkit 6 characters to be slightly better than just medkit 6 dudes.  I bet most people do it this way anyways, so it shouldn't cause an issue.

[wylie]

the only problem I have with limiting the time frame on Missions is that I am limited on where & who I play Shadowrun with, leaving my PCs several at a time with no 'jobs'

on the cap, when it comes down to the final dice roll, its 20 dice, is my ruling
its things like vehicle defense that go over (armor plus body)

[wylie]

when are we gonna see a list of the banned spells?
 I can guess Mind Probe, influnce, control actions, mob mind....what else?

I do hope most of the Detect spells are otherwise left alone

[squee_nabob]

when are we gonna see a list of the banned spells?
 I can guess Mind Probe, influnce, control actions, mob mind....what else?

I do hope most of the Detect spells are otherwise left alone

All mental spells are banned already (I don't know if you knew this or not)

[wylie]

define mental?
mind probe is easy...but what about invisiblity? mask?

detect life? combat sense?

see?

there are easy ones, and there are gray ones...depending on on how you view the power.

[FastJack]

define mental?
mind probe is easy...but what about invisiblity? mask?

detect life? combat sense?

see?

there are easy ones, and there are gray ones...depending on on how you view the power.

Manipulation spells, SR4A, p. 210-211. Mental spells have it listed in parenthesis next to the spell name.

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

There was talk of banning mental manipulation spells and possession traditions, but it hasn't yet made it into the FAQ or official use AFAIK.  Bull has cautioned GMs to enforce appropriate "consequences" for PCs who abuse said powers.

As I understand it, there were PCs who were using mind control powers on their contacts and J's.  Once such manipulation is uncovered--and it's too hard to keep that under wraps--those runners' days are numbered, and certainly there aren't many contacts who would want to deal with a runner known to mess with his contacts' minds.  Using mind control powers against enemies is one thing, using them against your employers is quite another.  And God forbid you should use such powers to mess with the minds of the Season 4 contacts, most of whom are well-connected.

[squee_nabob]

they have already been banned as of 6/27.

http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=4035.msg54488#msg54488

[Bull]

Eh.  I'm rethinking my stance, actually.  though I think an FAQ note about how to handle these is definitely in order. 

I'm not fond of "Blanket Banning".  I think GMs just need to know that they can and should enforce the game world (And clarify how these spells interact with that world, since many aren't that clear).  And that Gms need to realize that they can, and should, deal with problem players who "ruin" games by making them less fun for their fellow players harshly.

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

I suspect a lot of people forget that it's hard to be subtle with effective spells.  Spellcasting hits are capped at Force (SR4A, 183), but spellcasting (or any magical skill) can be noticed with a Perception (6 - Force) test (SR4A, 179).

It can be a terribly fine balance (or gamble) to determine a Force necessary to score enough hits to affect the target while still being a low enough Force to not be noticed.  Trying that when your target has multiple allies present?  Even worse.  Use a team Perception roll as appropriate (SR4A, 135), and remember the bonuses if the perceiver is Awakened or astrally perceiving (SR4A, 179).

Word gets around, especially with regard to magicians with high Street Cred, Notoriety, and/or Public Awareness...and other runners who work with them.

[Bull]

the other thing is that nowhere does it say that the victim doesn't no he's been messed with (in the case of the mind control type spells).  So once they wear off, they KNOW something happened, that they acted abnormal.  And for anyone competant and intelligent in the world of Shadowrun?  They're going to be able to guess what happened to them. 

Basically, what it needs to come down to is this...  Using these spells to distract or control a guard so you can break into Facility X?  Good use of the spell.  Mind controlling Laurent Naizare to get more money?  Very bad use of the spell.  Mind controlling your teammates?  VERY, VERY bad use of the spell.

I don't particularly care for these spells, because I think it ruins some of the fun of the game, and can be an "EZ Mode".  And too often is used that way by players. It's lazing gaming.

But, these spells have their place and their purpose, so I went back on my decision to outright ban them all while we reviewed things.   

As i said above, I think that they can stay, I think players (and more importantly, Gamemasters) need educated about them, and some "ground rules" need to be laid out.

Plus, thinking about Season 4...  It is such a BAD, BAD, BAD idea to mind control pretty much any of the major contacts for Season 4.  Because once they find out (and they WILL find out.  GMs should never forget that they have edge, and usually a fair amount of it), the repercussions should be pretty bad.  I mean, you have a District Attorney and a Knight Errant Detective who heads up a special ops division of KE, so messing with either brings the law down hard.  You have the head of the local Atlantean Foundation chapter and someone with the power fo he Draco Foundation behind him.  You have a pair of NPCs who both directly report to Great Dragons (And who are pretty badass in their own right).  You have a pair of reporters (Gee, I don't know WHY you just earned 25 points of public awareness.  maybe because your picture has been running on KSAF nonstop for the last 24 hours?).  And you have an ork with the ORC behind him, plus most of Street Legends on Speed Dial.  Hell, even Pip...  Frag with him, and you don't ever want to step foot in the Ork underground again.

Just saying, Gamemasters have a lot of ways to handle things, if a player is being a problem.  I think it comes down to a certain amount of "Player Entitlement" these days.  There's been an attitude in the gaming community for the last decade or so where it's suddenly become a no-no for a GM to take a strong hand in his games.  That you can't chastise or punish a player for his or her actions in a game, because it "ruins their fun" or some such.  Which IMNSHO is a bunch of elephant dung.  if players are looking for someone who's just going to recite a story and roll dice, but has no real authority?  the players should just go play video games, because theat's what they really want.  A Gamemasters job is to tell a story, to entertain, but also to challenge, to arbitrate, and to make sure everyone is having fun, including himself. And sometimes, that means smacking down a player or having bad things happen to the a character that's beyond the characters control. 

And I'm off on a ranty tangent.  Anyway...  Yeah, there you go.

Bull