[Charybdis]

Well sure, running and swimming is one thing, but doing it at an athletic, competitive level is another. I'm not saying they aren't useful skills, just that not having a point in it doesn't mean you don't know how to run. I would imagine that most runners don't do triathlons in their spare time.

Not having any formal training means you're as athletically capable(/incapable) as every other numpty who defaults to attributes while walking around on the street.

However if it's your job (as a Combat Medic) to hoon around the battlefield on foot to perform first aid, then running, swimming and climbing are pretty solid choices.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Also when defaulting and your stats aren't troll you might only be throwing 2-3 dice on a climb test.  That is easy to fail and not to hard to glitch on, same with running do you want to make a burst of speed but trip over a crack in the sidewalk?  It is a different system but not to long ago my group was playing a Cthulhu like game using the savage world rules.  I didn't have climb, I was frantically clawing away trying to get on to the roof of the van as zombies approached.   I finally got on the roof by the time the fight was over, if the people with me weren't such good shots with their shotguns I'd of been dead.  Honestly it was funny as hell, but most SR teams are supposed to play a bit different than that. 

The thing is these skills not only come up but lots of times when they come up you really need to succeed.  Fairly often they are do or die moments, and yes edge is awesome for when this happens I'd rather save my edge for things a bit more important than running fast to patch bob, or hop the fence before security arrives. 

[Cass100199]

Well sure, running and swimming is one thing, but doing it at an athletic, competitive level is another. I'm not saying they aren't useful skills, just that not having a point in it doesn't mean you don't know how to run. I would imagine that most runners don't do triathlons in their spare time.

Not having any formal training means you're as athletically capable(/incapable) as every other numpty who defaults to attributes while walking around on the street.

However if it's your job (as a Combat Medic) to hoon around the battlefield on foot to perform first aid, then running, swimming and climbing are pretty solid choices.

It is my job, lol. I guess that's what I'm saying: it's one thing to be physically fit, but another to specifically train. I run, workout, etc., but I don't " train" as a runner. Now I am thinking of trying the barefoot thing and a marathon or two now that I have some free time, but that's not my level. Like I said, I'm not knocking the skills themselves, just curious about the choice. If someone brings me a character with those three skills, I'm gonna ask if they do this recreationally. Traditionally, a military background doesn't teach you to climb, swim, etc. Those are things you pursue on your own or a special outfit does. So I was just curious.

For me I don't look at things in terms of maxing dice pools. I look at the character, the background, and I expect that everything has an explanation.  Also, I've got a house rule skill group for military characters. It's military firearms, your specialty, and the " fitness" . Fitness is used to reflect your being in shape and is used for physical actions. I may not know how to climb with gear, but I can damn sure climb over a 10 foot wall if need be, lol. That a just me, though.

[Onion Man]

Thanks.  Actually, I am former Army Combat Medic that spent his time in FSBs and an evac driver.  So there is a slightly different role than the platoon "Doc".  But with the changes to add spells, I was going for the Shadowrun version of the DnD cleric.  Your right of course about the leadership point buy.

If your D&D cleric is healing people, you've made a horribly, horribly sub-optimal character.

Just saying...

[Shinobi Killfist]

Thanks.  Actually, I am former Army Combat Medic that spent his time in FSBs and an evac driver.  So there is a slightly different role than the platoon "Doc".  But with the changes to add spells, I was going for the Shadowrun version of the DnD cleric.  Your right of course about the leadership point buy.

If your D&D cleric is healing people, you've made a horribly, horribly sub-optimal character.

Just saying...

That sort of depends on the edition.

As for climb etc.  A 1 or 2 in climb doesn't really mean you are training professionally to be a climber, it can easily mean you climbed a lot of trees as a kid. Running skill doesn't mean you are trying out for a marathon it just means you run a bit more often than a desk jockey who never hits the gym.  Now if you are pushing those skills into 3-4 range then yes it means you are heavily trained in them, but 1-2 is nothing.  Another reason I hate the capped 1-6 range a single die thematically means a lot but it is not mechanically backed up by it. 

[Onion Man]

Thanks.  Actually, I am former Army Combat Medic that spent his time in FSBs and an evac driver.  So there is a slightly different role than the platoon "Doc".  But with the changes to add spells, I was going for the Shadowrun version of the DnD cleric.  Your right of course about the leadership point buy.

If your D&D cleric is healing people, you've made a horribly, horribly sub-optimal character.

Just saying...

That sort of depends on the edition.

As for climb etc.  A 1 or 2 in climb doesn't really mean you are training professionally to be a climber, it can easily mean you climbed a lot of trees as a kid. Running skill doesn't mean you are trying out for a marathon it just means you run a bit more often than a desk jockey who never hits the gym.  Now if you are pushing those skills into 3-4 range then yes it means you are heavily trained in them, but 1-2 is nothing.  Another reason I hate the capped 1-6 range a single die thematically means a lot but it is not mechanically backed up by it.

Yeah, it's only suboptimal in AD&D, Challenger Series, 2nd Ed, 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder, and 4E so far.

[Charybdis]

Not having any formal training means you're as athletically capable(/incapable) as every other numpty who defaults to attributes while walking around on the street.

However if it's your job (as a Combat Medic) to hoon around the battlefield on foot to perform first aid, then running, swimming and climbing are pretty solid choices.

It is my job, lol. I guess that's what I'm saying: it's one thing to be physically fit, but another to specifically train. I run, workout, etc., but I don't " train" as a runner. Now I am thinking of trying the barefoot thing and a marathon or two now that I have some free time, but that's not my level. Like I said, I'm not knocking the skills themselves, just curious about the choice. If someone brings me a character with those three skills, I'm gonna ask if they do this recreationally. Traditionally, a military background doesn't teach you to climb, swim, etc. Those are things you pursue on your own or a special outfit does. So I was just curious.

For me I don't look at things in terms of maxing dice pools. I look at the character, the background, and I expect that everything has an explanation.  Also, I've got a house rule skill group for military characters. It's military firearms, your specialty, and the " fitness" . Fitness is used to reflect your being in shape and is used for physical actions. I may not know how to climb with gear, but I can damn sure climb over a 10 foot wall if need be, lol. That a just me, though.

On SR4A p.119 it defined the skill ratings in terms of absolute incompetence through to OMG you're a Legend at that!

Have a skill at 1/2 is the Beginner/Novice level respectively which means at best you may have run high-school track on the athletics stream.
So to have the entire Athletics Group at 1 (which is cheaper than buying up the combination of Run/Swim/Climb individually) means that you may have been a member of a Gym or Little-League club many moons ago. And in your all-round experience, you picked up enough Gymnastics knowledge to do a cartwheel or a somersault as well (Gymnastics being part of the Athletics grouping).

If you have a House rule for Military PC's in regards to this 'Fitness' component, all cool. I don't really understand what it relates to, as 'Physical actions' is a very vague term that may already be covered under existing skills (such as those in the Athletics group)

If you need to climb a 10' wall, mechanically in SR4 a decent attribute will let you default to it, and a moderate attribute will get you there eventually, but it's a risk.
And personally, my army boot camp had an obstacle course component (and also involved rappelling with harness) so it's a logical choice to have the Athletics group for any PC who's been through at least that much training....
** Don't know what you yanks get at basic training, but if there isn't a nice muddy, cross-country obstacle course complete with walls, fences, barbed wire, rappelling and a clothed swim, then I think that's an oversight

[Shinobi Killfist]

Thanks.  Actually, I am former Army Combat Medic that spent his time in FSBs and an evac driver.  So there is a slightly different role than the platoon "Doc".  But with the changes to add spells, I was going for the Shadowrun version of the DnD cleric.  Your right of course about the leadership point buy.

If your D&D cleric is healing people, you've made a horribly, horribly sub-optimal character.

Just saying...

That sort of depends on the edition.

Yeah, it's only suboptimal in AD&D, Challenger Series, 2nd Ed, 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder, and 4E so far.

Right...  I'll just say you play a very different D&D than I do if people never need healing in a fight.  I think the 3e versions are the only editions where clerics really focused on fighting without healing and they still had to play medic in almost every game I played in.  4e is a bit different in that you take actions while healing. 

[Onion Man]

I didn't say that the rest of the party didn't need healing, I said that a healing cleric was a suboptimal build.

The smart bet for healing in 2nd Ed was the druid (or other specialist priest with Goodberry), augmented by a paladin (or bard with healing spells).  Even better, a psychometabolist focuseed on regen and injury transference.  Much the same in AD&D.  Challenger it made the most sense to have a wizard with a wand as your main healer (sounds wrong but that's how it worked).

I've definitely played a very different game of D&D than you have, but I've also definitely played in exactly the kind of game you describe... I've even been the token healbot from time to time.  Very sub-optimal.

[FastJack]

Ah, but "suboptimal" doesn't mean the character is bad. Especially if it's a good story.

[Digital_Viking]

And personally, my army boot camp had an obstacle course component (and also involved rappelling with harness) so it's a logical choice to have the Athletics group for any PC who's been through at least that much training....
** Don't know what you yanks get at basic training, but if there isn't a nice muddy, cross-country obstacle course complete with walls, fences, barbed wire, rappelling and a clothed swim, then I think that's an oversight

All my military PCs have Athletics at 2 (Just makes sense flavorwise if not crunchwise)

** Don't know what you yanks get at basic training, but if there isn't a nice muddy, cross-country obstacle course complete with walls, fences, barbed wire, rappelling and a clothed swim, then I think that's an oversight

Hell we had to go through that just to get to the mess hall 

[Cass100199]

Oh we rappel, and climb stuff and crawl through mud. But the rappelling is done with all kinds of safety people and we're taught just enough, technically, to not get ourselves killed. You can go to advanced schools for more training, but many people don't use it afterwards. They get the badge and go home. I guess I always viewed a "1" as you went and hung out with a friend and didn't die when he took you on the climbing wall.

The fitness thing is used to represent being in shape and athletic without having the particular skill. Basically extra default dice. I think of it as that little gut check inside that says no matter how hard this is it isn't as bad as that time....so on and so forth.

[DWC]

There's also a very real chance that said discharged veteran is not exactly the paragon of health as a 35 year old contractor that he was as a 30 year old E-5, or a 19 year old recruit.  He doesn't spend as much time on PT so his physical stats aren't what they were, and he hasn't run the O-course in 3 years, so his Athletics has atrophied a point.  His Perception, Automatics, and technical skills might still be top of the pile, but age and lack of practice catches up to everyone.

[Cass100199]

True. I know I ain't as young as I used to be. In 13 years an 11:30 2 mile turned into a 16:30 suckfest, lol. So off topic, has anyone ever instituted age mechanics in SR?

[Charybdis]

True. I know I ain't as young as I used to be. In 13 years an 11:30 2 mile turned into a 16:30 suckfest, lol. So off topic, has anyone ever instituted age mechanics in SR?

We investigated, but didn't bother.

If someone makes a 400BP hacker who's 16 years old, they'll build prioritise the stats accordingly
If someone builds a 400BP 45-year old private-eye, they'll prioritise the stats accordingly

No reason to mechanically penalise someone for choosing a different flavour of character