[KarmaInferno]

I apologise. I had thought that using "I believe this" and "My view is" would make it clear I was expressing opinion. Reading rules is all about interpretation, and while I can understand your assertion, and the reasoning behind it, I don't agree with it.

As for rules references, very well.

I couldn't remember where I'd seen an author opinion on the subject, but digging around turns up this entry in the FAQ:

"Most spirits don’t have Immunity to Normal Weapons unless they’re materialized or possessing a vessel"

This reinforces my belief that ITNW being left off the spirit power lists is intentional, not accidental.

I stated the reasoning behind my assertions. Aside from the power lists and the FAQ, the reference in RC to summoned spirits gaining ITNW is specifically only for physically manifested ones.

I will admit to a great distaste to "use RAW and only RAW" arguments because doing so often results in wildly broken combos that were probably not what the author intended. I prefer to reason out the intent behind the words when possible.

I will note that I will not level insults on your character based on some internet discussion. I don't know you personally and cannot make such a pronouncement. I have always held that one should always attack the subject, never the person. Otherwise it stops being a discussion. I simply don't agree with your interpretation.

In any case, I agree that our positions have been clearly stated and further discussion is probably not helpful.



-k

[JustADude]

As for rules references, very well.

I couldn't remember where I'd seen an author opinion on the subject, but digging around turns up this entry in the FAQ:

"Most spirits don’t have Immunity to Normal Weapons unless they’re materialized or possessing a vessel"

This reinforces my belief that ITNW being left off the spirit power lists is intentional, not accidental.

Now, you see, this I can work with. It actually provides a concrete foundation for your arguments, so we're talking about something external and abstract, that can be defined quantitatively. A lot of people question the FAQ, but I tend to think it's accurate except for a the places where inconsistencies were found. With that citation, I'll agree with you on the specifics of it being intentional that the power isn't permanent... though I have to ask why a Spirit would need or benefit from ItNW when they're not materialized or possessing something?

And I do apologize for getting personal, but I process information in a very precise and logical manner. People who talk about their views and opinions without giving me anything external to work with just aggravate the hell out of me. It's like arguing about religion. That's the reason I talk about RAW; it's because the way I envision the process of creating the rules for the game. RAW is the literal and fixed representation of the rules, then each GM interprets it into the RAI and sets up House Rules to adjust it as they see fit.

The broken combos are quite possible under RAW; it's part of the GM's job to stomp on the ones he doesn't want showing up, and he has the power to do so. The difference between RAW and the Table Rules does need to be acknowledged, though.

But, yes, I think we've reached the point where we've agreed to disagree... though I do feel compelled to point out that the FAQ once again mentions Immunity to Normal Weapons directly.

[Lethe]

Using plain rules (RAW), i have to agree with JustADude. Spirits gain the "power" ITNW, while physical and no matter why and where they got a power from, as long as they have it, they can pass it on with endowment. No restrictions.

But thinking aside the rules, how stuff would actually work, spirits only have the "power" because they are not really present in the mundane world. Its more like an extension of them. That's the reason why mundane weapons have difficulties harming them and its expressed by giving them ITNW. Its nothing they can switch on or off, nothing they have any control over, therefor no transferring. Same goes for "powers" like Sapience or Natural Weapon of the Beast Spirit or even energy aura, its just there as a part of the spirits form itself.
I personally would rule that only active powers(powers a spirit can decide to use or not) can be transferred, not something that's just there without the spirits doing.

Edit: Looking at all the powers, i would probably disallow endowment of all powers with the description "Action:auto", as they all seem to be part of the critter form itself, they don't have influence over that.


Edit2: Another interesting approach with endowment would be, if you get a hold of a shadow spirit, to endow the endowment power to it, which in return endows you with its Energy Drain (Karma) power. That's the quick and evil way to more power ;-)

[blackangel]

Edit2: Another interesting approach with endowment would be, if you get a hold of a shadow spirit, to endow the endowment power to it, which in return endows you with its Energy Drain (Karma) power. That's the quick and evil way to more power ;-)

I was searching some advise upon rulling ally spirit and saw this...
I allready thought of something like this but rather than searching for a shadow spirit If I really want it I will probably go for a vampire or nosferatu... (evil way you said  )

BA

[bangbangtequila]

I don't know, I have to disagree with justADude, and while he won't like the reasons why, I can't help but think them logical.

A spirit's fundamental form is as an immaterial entity. In this form, it does not have ITNW, as clearly stated by RAW quotations provided by JaD. In order to possess that power, it must use another power, Materialization. Now, sure, you could interpret the rules to mean that powers provided by powers are able to be endowed, but that sort of opens a can of worms that all make very little sense to me, and the rules are abundantly clear at every turn that while spirits may possess the power, the power is provided by materialization. It is definitively interpretation to say either point of view beyond that is correct, given that the rules say nothing at all about endowing powers provided by powers, and repeatedly quoting that when materialized, the spirit possess the ITNW power does not change the fact. I won't bother saying this is merely my opinion - if you can't figure that out, you've no place responding.

If you prefer to stick to your "the literal wording and nothing else" approach, then one could say that if a Spirit takes the form of say, form fitting body armour, since it mimics that object in form and function exactly, it would only be a set of form fitting armour. No added armour rating from being a spirit, no ITNW (unless endowed), no perks at all except the exact ones provided by Form Fitting Armour (6B/2I). An effect much more cheaply provided by some under two thousand nuyen and under twelve availability items.

[Tsuarok]

Hi chummers,

I have a question regarding the power "realistic form" for ally spirits.
when the summoner chooses the forms he can choose any physical creature or object and [a spirit that appeared as an object mimics the object's normal functionality]
so far so good.
Now what if the summoners chooses the form to be a full military armor or any armor at all (form fitting body armor for example),
1. could he wear it?
2. would he be encumbered?
3. could he add (in the realistic form, not in the armor after materialization) improvements like nonconductivity?
4. and what would the armor value (ballistic/impact) be?
5. could the summoner (also) profit from the ally power "immunity to normal weapons" while wearing the armor, as any attack has to go through the spirit?

what if he chooses the ally spirit to materialize in the form of a big airplane, could he transport the whole team of shadowrunners, what are the (size) limits?

any (official) help or opinions are welcome.

best regards
Hellfre

I think it comes down to tradition.  While a chaos mage who embraces technology and views spirits as tools might go for this, an animal shaman who is a technophobe and respects his spirits likely would not.  Even in the case of a chaos mage it may be inappropriate.

If it were allowed;
1. sure
2. as normal armor
3. no
4. as normal armor + ITNW
5. yes

As for the plane question, any materialized spirits can fly.  I'd guess that their carrying capacity would be based on their strength (i.e. their force).  Presumably the spirit suit would also allow you to fly.

[Lethe]

I was searching some advise upon rulling ally spirit and saw this...
I allready thought of something like this but rather than searching for a shadow spirit If I really want it I will probably go for a vampire or nosferatu... (evil way you said  )

Well, vampires are only able to drain essence. Not really the same and quite harmless.

[raggedhalo]

If you prefer to stick to your "the literal wording and nothing else" approach, then one could say that if a Spirit takes the form of say, form fitting body armour, since it mimics that object in form and function exactly, it would only be a set of form fitting armour.

Wouldn't it need Realistic Form to do that?

[bangbangtequila]

Wouldn't it need Realistic Form to do that?

Ally spirits & realistic form, could they pose as armor & with which rating?

[raggedhalo]

*facepalm*

Long day, sorry!

[Falconer]

Hmm... it's not a bad question.   To the OP... I'd use the possession rules as a guide.

If the spirit possessed an existing suit of armor, it would simply increase it's ratings by it's force (I'd say non-encumbering though it's never spelled out).  Realistic form gets rid of the annoying problem of being obviously magical to everyone around.

So if you had a particular say film noire trench coat (think those are like 6/4 in the main book...), then had your force 6 posses it, it's ratings would go up to 12/10.

If you created one out of thin air with materialization I'd limit it to force.  You gain the advantage of surprise being able to conjure something potentially useful out of nothing.   I think a good example of this would be if your ally took the form of something like a weapon like a sword.  One of my friends like to consider getting an ally to inhabit a sword with an asbestos hilt possessed by an ally to try and add on elemental aura.  Again I can see a good case for making it non-encumbering, but not stacking with other worn armor which doesn't normally stack.

Again remember, you can buy alternate realistic forms for your spirit after it's made for very cheap karma costs.  So you have a lot of variety in what it could materialize as.  With possession... you need to invest in goodies to possess (and preferably turn them into prepared vessels) which you then need to sneak through security and such... so I can see the case for enhancing an existing item while starting a new one from 0.

In NEITHER CASE (emphasis needed)... would Immunity to Normal Weapons extend to the wearer... the COAT would be nigh indestructible.  This could reflect itself as bullets go through the coat... after which it magically stitches itself back together etc.  (no different than ItNW doesn't mean that bullets don't go through say a ghostly form... they simply have no damaging affect on it).

That's just my views... mostly just from trying to stay within the letter of the rules without being excessive.

[Lethe]

In NEITHER CASE (emphasis needed)... would Immunity to Normal Weapons extend to the wearer... the COAT would be nigh indestructible.  This could reflect itself as bullets go through the coat... after which it magically stitches itself back together etc.  (no different than ItNW doesn't mean that bullets don't go through say a ghostly form... they simply have no damaging affect on it).

Very good point, i think you are right.
There is a reason the description of this power has all the appearances of "armor rating" in quotes - because its not a real armor rating. Immunity describes that something gets just less affected. A bullet would get right through...

Edit:
I disagree with the strengthening effect like possession though. But you could just ask the spirit to form a better type of armor.

So the answers to the OP would be
1. could he wear it? yes
2. would he be encumbered? yes, like the normal type of armor
3. could he add (in the realistic form, not in the armor after materialization) improvements like nonconductivity? no
4. and what would the armor value (ballistic/impact) be? like the normal type of armor
5. could the summoner (also) profit from the ally power "immunity to normal weapons" while wearing the armor, as any attack has to go through the spirit? no, the attacks go right through the spirit

[Hellfire]

Many thanks for all answers so far and for the lively discussion reg. something completely different (is ITNW a power or not)

I have now decided on your input and as a GM I rule it the following way:

1. wearable armor: YES
2. Encumbrance: YES
3. Armor mods: Nothing (too) technical, like Nonconductivity / AR Interface etc.
4. Armor rating: like the physical representation (form as an armor jacket has the armor ratings of an armor jacket etc.)
5. Summoner wearing armor profits from ITNW: NO!

thanks again.