[JustADude]

...calls into question how the education system would work, and why Orks have an intelligence penalty when in fact they would be at the prime of their learning abilities at a (relatively) younger age - all Ork children would be geniuses (compared to their human/elven classmates) who gradually flatten out into morons by adulthood, which is kind of silly when you think about it.

There's no greater BP or Karma cost to raise Intelligence for Orks compared to humans. No reason for them to become morons just because it's capped at 5  (Genius) instead of 6 (Super-Genius), even if Logic was the same thing as intelligence... which it isn't.

[raggedhalo]

calls into question how the education system would work, and why Orks have an intelligence penalty when in fact they would be at the prime of their learning abilities at a (relatively) younger age

In earlier editions, the explanation was that Goblinisation caused brain damage, hence worse intellectual performance.

Granted, the majority of orks and trolls now don't Goblinise and are born as orks, which makes the whole notion redundant, but nevertheless...

[jonathanc]

calls into question how the education system would work, and why Orks have an intelligence penalty when in fact they would be at the prime of their learning abilities at a (relatively) younger age

In earlier editions, the explanation was that Goblinisation caused brain damage, hence worse intellectual performance.

Granted, the majority of orks and trolls now don't Goblinise and are born as orks, which makes the whole notion redundant, but nevertheless...

The earlier editions also emphasized the radically different life cycle of orks, which is why I brought it up. The whole thing never rmade sense to me, so I've generally ignored it.

[CitizenJoe]

I'll bring this up again.  There are FAR more orks in the Cascade Orks tribe than there are in all of the Seattle Metroplex. So any 'legitimate' assessment of orks as a race is going to be biased heavily by that group.  The Cascade Orks do mining, goat farming and smuggling.  They live in an area largely shielded from the pollution of Seattle.  Their diet is likely similar to any other Salish citizen, i.e. fresh crops.

[crisses]

The earlier editions also emphasized the radically different life cycle of orks, which is why I brought it up. The whole thing never rmade sense to me, so I've generally ignored it.

Go ahead, ignore it!   However, I think the question on the table was "Where is this information coming from?" since it wasn't explicitly mentioned in SR4A as such (although it might be, I just never looked for it...).  Since I had just run DNA/DOA a month or so ago, I remembered at least one place the information comes from.  Since I've been playing since SR1, since about 1989, I've got it pretty well ingrained in my "Shadowrun Brain" that this is how it is.

As to why I would want to ignore it...well, it makes the whole game feel more ridiculous to me. It also makes any human/dwarf/elf who is dating an ork a likely pedophile/pederast,

Much more so if a biologically-mature 13-year-old Ork is trying to date a biologically immature 13-year-old Elf or Dwarf....  The information I quoted is "behind the scenes" for GMs.  I think one of the points was that law & labor laws had not "caught on" to the fact that a 13 year old Ork was physically (but not necessarily emotionally or mentally) ready to be part of the workforce, not sit still in 7th-8th grade classes.  "Bored Ork Syndrome" then leads to many of these excess-testosterone-bearing boys to be in gangs, because trust me gangs will keep idle teens busy.  Orks would be more likely to be disenfranchised by schools due to excessive violence against age-mate children much smaller than they are, thus more suspensions, more referrals to reform schools, etc.  [An all-Ork school would help take care of some of these issues -- give them more roughhousing in the gym/playground, burn it off, give them weight sets, etc.  But it still doesn't stop the problem of only "making it to" 8th grade by the time they're physically mature....  Another thing that might help is either homeschooling, or starting Kindergarten much earlier than other children...  They could probably start kindergarten at 3.  Unless they're emotionally/intellectually still the equivalent of a human 3-year-old.]

and calls into question how the education system would work, and why Orks have an intelligence penalty when in fact they would be at the prime of their learning abilities at a (relatively) younger age - all Ork children would be geniuses (compared to their human/elven classmates) who gradually flatten out into morons by adulthood, which is kind of silly when you think about it.

Huh?  Physically maturing faster doesn't change our education system, or the fact that we're in an Information Age and choose to cram young minds full of near-useless theory before they will actually be taught applications/skills.  The amount of information we have to impart on children before we consider them high-school educated doesn't change.  However, since 20 years old is "Ork Midlife" according to what I've quoted, we're expecting Orks to wait until the equivalent of 40 years old for a human before they even get their first college degree? (and an Associate's Degree at that....).  Early drop-outs probably account for a good bit of the "lack of orkish intelligence" -- which is merely PERCEIVED intelligence due to lack of formal highschool/higher education, in many cases.

This leads to piss-poor education, regardless of whether Orks are biologically capable of "Super-Genius" logic (they are -- give them an aptitude).

[Critias]

Obviously, anyone that wants to ignore any aspect of all this is free to do so -- but I think you're missing out on part of what makes Orks...well...Orks.

Imagine their frustration, trying to make it in a public school system.  Being physically mature, but not quite mentally mature yet, and how dangerous it would be for a middle-school aged Ork to get in a schoolyard tussle with another kid (over metaracial slurs or what-have-you).  Imagine trying to keep a grown-man's strength in check all day, crammed into a school uniform, dealing with average human ten year olds, getting fed the same portions as them, expected to sit in the same desks.  You struggle through school and your mind catches up to your head; then what, college?  A job?  It's about time; by the time you've got your foot in the door with an entry-level position, your life is almost half up.  Imagine not being allowed to legally vote, or drive, or drink alcohol until you're soundly middle aged.  Imagine the resentment towards Humans, Dwarves, and Elves -- society tells you they're all smarter than you, society tells you they're all better looking than you, everyone knows they'll all live longer than you (especially the non-Humans).  You know you'll never last long enough to get that middle management position, because that smug Elven bitch you work for is going to be here for hundreds of years, and you feel like you've barely got hundreds of days.

Then your wife gets pregnant.  Six kids.  Six, and you've got to put food into each and every one of their hungry mouths.  They're growing like weeds, just as fast as you did, and they're going through clothes so fast, and food, and breaking their toys...and your bitch of a boss wrote you up for using company electronics for personal use last week, but you had to go to this conference call because Johnny broke some runty Human kid's arm, and between that and him starting to bust out Or'zet like those damned rappers, the executives of the corporate school district want to expel him, and you just lost your vacation for the year over it but they're growing up so fast and you just feel so worn down and old, when will you ever get to see them again?

And on, and on, and on like that.  And those are the ones that try to work within the system.  The ones lucky enough to have SINs, and the ones who follow the rules.  You want to know why the Orkish ganger is a cliche?  Because it makes sense.  Stronger and tougher than a normal human, growing up faster, maybe not the brightest bulb in the lamp?  Breed like crazy, have trouble staying in school, feel frustrated and held up by society's laws (that never seem to take metaspecies into account), so the inner cities are full of them?

Hell yeah, Orkish gangers grow on trees.  Look at their alternatives.

[jonathanc]

That's just it though: assuming that Orks age rapidly *and* die around 45 (of old age), it simply doesn't make sense for *any* of them to be able to get along in society. They'd be more mature in school, but there's still a limit to how fast anyone can learn something; orks basically have half the time to accomplish the same things. I think there's plenty for orks to be angry at society about without having them undergo male pattern baldness in the time it takes their wives to carry a baby to term.


The problems it causes for reproduction are kind of ridiculous too. Ork women would hit menopause at, what? their mid-20s? 30's? Pretty much any of them that *are* going to have kids would be doing so in Middle school or High school, which means it's effectively impossible for them to complete schooling...it also brings up the question of nearly every PC Ork either having kids already, or being doomed to life as a spinster. There's no room for middle ground, because they have no time to wait to make the decision.

Also, emotional maturity isn't simply a matter of physiology; it's your surroundings. So either every 'Runner team is tooling around with a broken, decrepit 30 year old ork, or they're babysitting a giant 14 year old. The implications seem ridiculous to me, and make Shadowrun Orks even less relatable than D&D Orcs.

[Critias]

I think there's an excluded middle, and some exaggeration, going on on your part -- but if you think this one thing is your insurmountable hurdle that makes the setting fall apart and not make any sense for you, so be it.  Like has already been said, you're certainly free to ignore it.

[CitizenJoe]

Take all of your excuses and apply them to the Cascade Orks.  Does it still make sense?

[crisses]

That's just it though: assuming that Orks age rapidly *and* die around 45 (of old age), it simply doesn't make sense for *any* of them to be able to get along in society. They'd be more mature in school,

Only physically...

but there's still a limit to how fast anyone can learn something; orks basically have half the time to accomplish the same things. I think there's plenty for orks to be angry at society about without having them undergo male pattern baldness in the time it takes their wives to carry a baby to term.

I believe gestation is 6 months.  You're right, but that doesn't mean life is fair.  That's the point that some folk have been making:  This is a point-of-difference that one can actively roleplay (raking in great role-playing karma) if you're playing an Ork character.  There's REASONS for the negative qualities that balance out the racial costs....play it up! 

Big Regret: only survivor of litter; absolutely determined to "make up for it" by over-achieving.  Prejudice: school administrators.  Uneducated.  "Night School" (as opposed to Day Job) {character is catching up on his High School diploma online, pays 2500¥/3 months on education costs, and must spend 15 hours a week studying (when finished gets rid of the Uneducated quality...can decide whether to attend college as Night School thereafter....).  If misses 15 hrs one week, must triple time the following week (45 hrs) to catch up.  Must complete 3 more semesters @ 3 months each to complete equivalency diploma.  May only take 1 semester off.} (because he's attending Night School, the prejudice is more likely to come into play)

The problems it causes for reproduction are kind of ridiculous too. Ork women would hit menopause at, what? their mid-20s? 30's?

Good point -- the fertility period of ork females would be from about hrm -- assume they start around the earliest human fertility at about 8 years old, and it lasts to about 25 years old....  Most human (women) it's from about 11 or 12 years through nearly 55 (with men all bets are off).  So that's another limitation on ork population explosions (referring back to former conversation).

Pretty much any of them that *are* going to have kids would be doing so in Middle school or High school, which means it's effectively impossible for them to complete schooling...

Assuming that a Humanis eugenics clinic didn't offer the "snipping solution" to them at the age of oh -- 7 or 8 or so.

it also brings up the question of nearly every PC Ork either having kids already, or being doomed to life as a spinster. There's no room for middle ground, because they have no time to wait to make the decision.

Or, as has happened in the past in our society -- the men (humans are potentially fertile until death) pair up with younger women (orks, fertile from 8, still fertile at 16-18).  If an ork man of any age marries/mates with an 18 year old they have plenty of time to squeeze in some litters (maybe 2 or 3 litters.  Who needs more than that?) before she's infertile....  Of course, he may need to be willing to be a stepfather.  Assuming he sticks around in the first place...sorry guys, but the Ork male life would leave more unwed (and widowed) mothers than a human slum today, too.

Also, emotional maturity isn't simply a matter of physiology; it's your surroundings. So either every 'Runner team is tooling around with a broken, decrepit 30 year old ork, or they're babysitting a giant 14 year old. The implications seem ridiculous to me, and make Shadowrun Orks even less relatable than D&D Orcs.

So between the ages of 15-29, Orks can't run shadows.

[Critias]

Take all of your excuses and apply them to the Cascade Orks.  Does it still make sense?

What "excuses?"  You're not challenging me on something and forcing me to backpedal and explain myself, Joe.  I'm just sharing what I think makes the Orkish life cycle averages still pretty cool and compelling.  It highlights that metahumans aren't entirely human, and adds some reasons for metaracists to hate Orks (and Orks to hate everyone else, right back). 

[jonathanc]

I think there's an excluded middle, and some exaggeration, going on on your part -- but if you think this one thing is your insurmountable hurdle that makes the setting fall apart and not make any sense for you, so be it.  Like has already been said, you're certainly free to ignore it.

...and I certainly do. I disagree with the statement that ignoring it means that I'm missing out on some sort of extra enjoyment built into the ridiculous fluff on orks that hasn't been directly referenced (to my knowledge) since around 2nd Edition.

Orks as a disadvantaged minority that tend to die young are relatable and interesting. Orks as barely viable mutants who age like dogs and are ready for Matlock re-runs by their late 20's just seem like a burden to me. Dealing with the implications it raises creates problems that I don't find interesting as a storyteller (sending the group out to buy Depends for the Ork street sam isn't my idea of fun) and wouldn't feel right hand-waving if I was going to use the hyper-aging fluff.

As for running between 15-29....well, that has the same problems. A 15 year old Ork is about as immature as a 14 year old Ork, and a 29 year old ork is about as decrepit as a 30 year old one. The problem is that they're aging so fast that you could (and should, if you're assuming they age in the manner described) watch them go from young and spritely to denture-wearing codger in the course of a few runs (assuming that the sweet spot is somewhere between 20-22). If your GM is going to age you into uselessness as punishment for picking an Ork, you might as well take Borrowed Time and get some points out of the whole deal.

[Critias]

Orks as a disadvantaged minority that tend to die young are relatable and interesting. Orks as barely viable mutants who age like dogs and are ready for Matlock re-runs by their late 20's just seem like a burden to me. Dealing with the implications it raises creates problems that I don't find interesting as a storyteller (sending the group out to buy Depends for the Ork street sam isn't my idea of fun) and wouldn't feel right hand-waving if I was going to use the hyper-aging fluff.

As for running between 15-29....well, that has the same problems. A 15 year old Ork is about as immature as a 14 year old Ork, and a 29 year old ork is about as decrepit as a 30 year old one. The problem is that they're aging so fast that you could (and should, if you're assuming they age in the manner described) watch them go from young and spritely to denture-wearing codger in the course of a few runs (assuming that the sweet spot is somewhere between 20-22). If your GM is going to age you into uselessness as punishment for picking an Ork, you might as well take Borrowed Time and get some points out of the whole deal.

And I'll just say again, I think some of you are exaggerating the Orkish life cycle, or you live in some very, very, long-lasting campaigns.  An Orkish PC who started running when first edition launched (who started running the shadows as a street-tough punk of 16 years old) is still only 40 years old in the timeline, today, as of the most recent publication.  That's hardly decrepit or having been aged into uselessness, or needing other PCs to buy them diapers, etc, etc.  Just like plenty of people live well past the average lifespans today, it's not like an Ork is going to suddenly keel over and die at 45 as some sort of hard cap.

And that's if someone has the same character from 20+ years ago real-time, and if they were born rather than goblinized into an Ork (who we know age differently), and if they haven't invested in Leonization in the meantime, which has been an option for a long, long, time.

That said?  Sarcasm is difficult to have a civil conversation with, and I've said my piece.  You're free to disagree -- like I've said several times already -- and to do whatever you want in your home campaign.  We don't have commando teams that kick in doors and force people to pay attention to any particular page of rules, much less background information.

[jonathanc]

Orks as a disadvantaged minority that tend to die young are relatable and interesting. Orks as barely viable mutants who age like dogs and are ready for Matlock re-runs by their late 20's just seem like a burden to me. Dealing with the implications it raises creates problems that I don't find interesting as a storyteller (sending the group out to buy Depends for the Ork street sam isn't my idea of fun) and wouldn't feel right hand-waving if I was going to use the hyper-aging fluff.

As for running between 15-29....well, that has the same problems. A 15 year old Ork is about as immature as a 14 year old Ork, and a 29 year old ork is about as decrepit as a 30 year old one. The problem is that they're aging so fast that you could (and should, if you're assuming they age in the manner described) watch them go from young and spritely to denture-wearing codger in the course of a few runs (assuming that the sweet spot is somewhere between 20-22). If your GM is going to age you into uselessness as punishment for picking an Ork, you might as well take Borrowed Time and get some points out of the whole deal.

And I'll just say again, I think some of you are exaggerating the Orkish life cycle, or you live in some very, very, long-lasting campaigns.  An Orkish PC who started running when first edition launched (who started running the shadows as a street-tough punk of 16 years old) is still only 40 years old in the timeline, today, as of the most recent publication.  That's hardly decrepit or having been aged into uselessness, or needing other PCs to buy them diapers, etc, etc.  Just like plenty of people live well past the average lifespans today, it's not like an Ork is going to suddenly keel over and die at 45 as some sort of hard cap.

They will if you assume that they age at an accelerated rate. If, as I do, you assume that the lifetime averages are based on demographic data rather than medical data, then yes, a 40 year old ork would be as hale and strong as he ever was, but perhaps a little wiser.

The setting info makes much more sense that way, IMO: between the Night of Rage, various plagues (to which low-income Orks would be particularly vulnerable), wars, and street violence, it's almost unimaginable that any reliable data on when an Ork drops of "natural causes" is available.

And that's if someone has the same character from 20+ years ago real-time, and if they were born rather than goblinized into an Ork (who we know age differently), and if they haven't invested in Leonization in the meantime, which has been an option for a long, long, time.

The cost of Leonization places it well out of the reach of most PCs, let alone regular street orks.
And without it, your example Ork would have likely died from organ failure sometime around 3rd Edition.

[CitizenJoe]

The Cascade Orks are an entire tribe of orks which exceed the entire population of orks in the Seattle Metroplex.  They control their society.  ALL their kids grow up with other orks, a human child would be the outsider.  While they do mine the Cascades, they also raise goats and assist in smuggling things in.  They aren't poor.  The fact that they bring in so much money is the only reason that the Salish haven't clamped down on them yet.  They also get free electricity for home use just like every other Salish citizen, care of Gaeatronics.  Since they are a tribe, having lots of kids isn't a problem, there are plenty of womenfolk to help raise the children. 

Note that due to their population, they are NOT the exception, they are the majority of orks.  They are wealthy, eat right, stay away from pollution, nobody else is fighting over their territory.  Why would they be stupid?  Why would they die earlier?