[rungok]

I'm trying to read through the alternate character creation system via the companion.

I'm trying to understand what the major difference is, because most of it seems to be based off BP just doubled, and you get 50 less points to build with. Also, the metatype costs are confusing.

Does anyone have a link to an explanation or have a way of making sense of  it?

[Lethe]

The best thing about karma build option:  there is no karma efficiency!
Whenever players post some new BP build characters here, you always read answers like
"bad karma efficiency", "better take two skills at 4 than four skills at 2", or "buy specializations later, it saves you 2 karma"... its horrible, even though its true!
With karma build that won't happen.

But karma build has one other big disadvantage: Free metatypes:
Metatypes are probably free, because metatypes have higher maximums, and purchasing those attributes to higher than human values with the karma option is insanely expensive. Same with increasing values in game after BP build. If someone made a troll with 7 body, you'll almost never see it increased to 8 during play, because 40 karma is just too much. That's why they wanted to give them back something and made metatypes cost nothing.
But, no one will play human anymore, since others get extra attribute points for free. You'll probably see lots of orcs, trolls, dwarfs with minimum strength, elfs with minimum charisma. Therefore you won't see trolls with 9 body or elfs with 7 charisma - its just too expensive. All metatypes will get there values kinda humanized through that...




If i may use this thread to suggest a modification to karma build:
- let metatypes cost karma
- all metatypes increase there attributes base value, when purchasing with karma, from 1 to 6.
- afterwards you add the metatype modifier.

Example:
Troll want to have body 8. Buys base value to 4 for 45 karma, adds metatype modification +4 .
New notation: 4/8
If you later want to increase to body 9, you just increase the base value to 5 for 25 karma.
If you get some augmentation for body the notation will be 5/9/10 for base/natural/augmented values

Reasoning:
Why should a troll pay more karma to reach his metatype average/maximum than a human, who reaches his metatype average/maximum? Isn't it in his genes that he should get there equally fast, with the same amount of training?

[UmaroVI]

There's errata to karmagen that made the following changes, all of which are really good ideas:

Metatype costs karma=bp

Stats cost the same as in SR4A, ie, 5x new value, not 3x new value.

The big places Karmagen differs are stats, skills, and complex forms; for all of these, karmagen makes it easier to have a lot of low-value ones. For example, having a lot of 1-2 rating skills is bad in BP gen, but not in Karmagen.

[Mäx]

I'm trying to read through the alternate character creation system via the companion.

I'm trying to understand what the major difference is, because most of it seems to be based off BP just doubled, and you get 50 less points to build with. Also, the metatype costs are confusing.

Somethings are douple BP cost, but most of the stuff have karma costs that are in no way connected to the BP costs.
The best think about karmagen is that it removes the difference between buying things at chargen and buying them after chargen, also it allows thinks like initiation/submersion and use of metamagics(like item/animal attunement) in chargen without GM having to make up costs in BP.

[rungok]

I didn't see it list initiation in the table for things you could purchase, so I didn't think you could do so even though you are buying things with karma.

[Makki]

who ever thought, building and advancing an rpg character with two different systems is a sensible idea must have been xxx (I'm not allowed to use these kind of words here)

[rungok]

There's errata to karmagen that made the following changes, all of which are really good ideas:

Metatype costs karma=bp

Stats cost the same as in SR4A, ie, 5x new value, not 3x new value.

How does this fix the metatype cost in karma generation? If what I'm reading is correct it just makes everything more expensive. Either way it just makes getting a higher attribute even less appealing.

[Black]

There's errata to karmagen that made the following changes, all of which are really good ideas:

Metatype costs karma=bp

Stats cost the same as in SR4A, ie, 5x new value, not 3x new value.

The big places Karmagen differs are stats, skills, and complex forms; for all of these, karmagen makes it easier to have a lot of low-value ones. For example, having a lot of 1-2 rating skills is bad in BP gen, but not in Karmagen.

Hi UmaroVI, where was that errata?

I have found metatypes to be extremely cheap for what you get using Karam Build rules.  I have a shapeshifter player character and with the fast running speeds, the dual nature, the natural weapons (are they magical?) , the regeneration, and the higher starting attributes... well it makes the character fairly powerful straight of the bat.

[UmaroVI]

It's in the German release of RC.

MrBlack: Attributes - which are a lot of what shifters get - are worth less in karmagen, because you get the cheapest part first. For example, in BP-gen, +1 Body is worth 10 BP, but in Karmagen it means you start at 2 rather than 1, which is worth 10 karma.

Also: dual natured is a (serious) disadvantage for shifters because they cannot turn it off. That means astral people can always attack them. For example, a spirit can float in the air and Confuse/Fear/Innate Spell/etc the shifter.

Shifter natural weapons are not inherently magical (an adept shifter with Killing Hands, for example, would have magical natural weapons).

Regeneration is really good though and that's the big thing Shifters get that makes them worth the huge amount of points.

[Chrona]

Shifter natural weapons are not inherently magical (an adept shifter with Killing Hands, for example, would have magical natural weapons).

A parallel question: If they are Duel Natured are their Natural Weapons Duel Natured too? I.e. can hit astral spirits/projecting mages. That's how I've seen it done with Ghouls.

[JustADude]

Shifter natural weapons are not inherently magical (an adept shifter with Killing Hands, for example, would have magical natural weapons).

A parallel question: If they are Duel Natured are their Natural Weapons Duel Natured too? I.e. can hit astral spirits/projecting mages. That's how I've seen it done with Ghouls.

Yes, they are. It specifically says so in the Natural Weapons power, IIRC.

[Mäx]

I didn't see it list initiation in the table for things you could purchase, so I didn't think you could do so even though you are buying things with karma.

As the tweaking the karma system box says, GM can if he want to allow use of karma for anything it can be used in game, witch is easy as there are already karma costs in the rules.
Nothing really stops a GM from allowing all those things in BP-gen either, it's just harder as he would have to figure out the costs himself.
This and the fact it removes all of the stupid optimization tricks based on what thinks cost in chargen and what they cost after are some of the best features of karmagen, i honestly cant understand why anyone would ever want to use BP-gen, when karmagen is just superior in everyway.

It's in the German release of RC.

People have reported that it's also in the newest English printing

[Lethe]

A parallel question: If they are Duel Natured are their Natural Weapons Duel Natured too? I.e. can hit astral spirits/projecting mages. That's how I've seen it done with Ghouls.

Yes, they are. It specifically says so in the Natural Weapons power, IIRC.

But remember, for astral combat even natural weapons will use Willpower + Astral Combat skill. Not unarmed combat.

[JustADude]

A parallel question: If they are Duel Natured are their Natural Weapons Duel Natured too? I.e. can hit astral spirits/projecting mages. That's how I've seen it done with Ghouls.

Yes, they are. It specifically says so in the Natural Weapons power, IIRC.

But remember, for astral combat even natural weapons will use Willpower + Astral Combat skill. Not unarmed combat.

Not so; I'm back with my books, so allow my to copy over the Natural Weapons power from SR4A. Take special note of the emphasized part at the end.

Natural Weapon
Type: P  •  Action: Complex  •  Range: Touch  •  Duration: Instant
     The critter possesses some natural form of weaponry capable of inflicting Physical damage, such as claws, sharp teeth, or a stinger. The description of this power describes the nature of the attack, as well as its Damage Value and Armor Penetration modifiers where applicable. Natural weapons may be either melee weapons or ranged weapons, and critters follow the standard rules of combat when using them. Critters use the Unarmed Combat skill to attack with natural melee weapons, and the Exotic Ranged attack skill to attack with natural ranged weapons.
     Critters without a Natural Weapon may still make an unarmed attack. As with regular characters, the Damage Value is (STR ÷ 2)S.
     If the critter is dual natured, Natural Weapon may be used with the normal Unarmed Combat skill and physical Damage Value to perform attacks against astral opponents (within reach).

[Lethe]

Not so; I'm back with my books, so allow my to copy over the Natural Weapons power from SR4A. Take special note of the emphasized part at the end.

I see myself corrected. Thank you :-)
So dual natured is at least not totally bad.

I assume this will also be allowed for an astral perceiving character with Natural Weapons then?
According to SR4A an astral perceiving character is considered dual-natured.
Using Unarmed Combat with fists, which are natural weapons, should also be allowed in astral space.
But RAW says, you have to use astral combat with willpower for that.  (at least in SR2 iirc you could choose which to use)
I really don't see the difference for using other rules here.