[Medicineman]

If the critter is dual natured, Natural Weapon may be used with the normal Unarmed Combat skill and physical Damage Value to perform attacks against astral opponents (within reach).

but thats for Critter only
sadly the Devs made a difference between Critter and PCs
for PCs You still need Astral Combat even if You're a Shapeshifter or other DN Creature

with a different Dance
Medicineman

[Kayzie]

If i may use this thread to suggest a modification to karma build:
- let metatypes cost karma
- all metatypes increase there attributes base value, when purchasing with karma, from 1 to 6.
- afterwards you add the metatype modifier.

Example:
Troll want to have body 8. Buys base value to 4 for 45 karma, adds metatype modification +4 .
New notation: 4/8
If you later want to increase to body 9, you just increase the base value to 5 for 25 karma.
If you get some augmentation for body the notation will be 5/9/10 for base/natural/augmented values

Reasoning:
Why should a troll pay more karma to reach his metatype average/maximum than a human, who reaches his metatype average/maximum? Isn't it in his genes that he should get there equally fast, with the same amount of training?

I really like this idea, we used something similar in SR3 in the past. Now if chummer could work this feature ... perfect.
Karma char generation for me is gives more flavored characters with less need to optimize due to different system for advancing in attributes and skills (BP vs karma).
Try rebuilding BP built chars with karma gen, most of the times I have a spare 100 to 150 karma to spend after re-creation of the char.

[JustADude]

If the critter is dual natured, Natural Weapon may be used with the normal Unarmed Combat skill and physical Damage Value to perform attacks against astral opponents (within reach).

but thats for Critter only
sadly the Devs made a difference between Critter and PCs
for PCs You still need Astral Combat even if You're a Shapeshifter or other DN Creature

with a different Dance
Medicineman

Ah, but normally characters aren't allowed to have Natural Weapons; notice how the description uses the term critter exclusively?

Also, only critters require the Sapience power, but all the PC types that have Natural Weapon (Naga, Centaur, Shapeshifters, Free Spirits) all have Sapience, which makes them "PC Critters" IMO.

[Black]

If the critter is dual natured, Natural Weapon may be used with the normal Unarmed Combat skill and physical Damage Value to perform attacks against astral opponents (within reach).

but thats for Critter only
sadly the Devs made a difference between Critter and PCs
for PCs You still need Astral Combat even if You're a Shapeshifter or other DN Creature

with a different Dance
Medicineman

Ah, but normally characters aren't allowed to have Natural Weapons; notice how the description uses the term critter exclusively?

Also, only critters require the Sapience power, but all the PC types that have Natural Weapon (Naga, Centaur, Shapeshifters, Free Spirits) all have Sapience, which makes them "PC Critters" IMO.

Agreed.  They are non-metahuman sapients... or as you said "PC Critters".  Unless someone can quote a particular rule that says otherwise, that's how I read it.

I do see how it could be read the otherway just as easily though.

[rungok]

I don't understand how you think it cuts the starting money in half. Sure it's 2500 Nuyen per karma, but you can spend up to 100 of it on gear.

[Medicineman]

But karma generation ISN'T superior in ANY way.

Not in Any Way (that for sure)
If You want to create Chars with extreme Attributes (Troll with STR or BOD 14-16 or Elf with AGI 10)
or Mages or Technomancers You'd better use the BP System ,but If You want to create more ...."All-Around-Chars " (Jack o'T ?)You fare better with the Karmasystem and if you use the errataed Version then its not even Imba compared with the BP System (the old Karmasystem made way to Powerful Chars compared to the BP System )

with a more balanced Dance
Medicineman

[All4BigGuns]

But karma generation ISN'T superior in ANY way.

Not in Any Way (that for sure)
If You want to create Chars with extreme Attributes (Troll with STR or BOD 14-16 or Elf with AGI 10)
or Mages or Technomancers You'd better use the BP System ,but If You want to create more ...."All-Around-Chars " (Jack o'T ?)You fare better with the Karmasystem and if you use the errataed Version then its not even Imba compared with the BP System (the old Karmasystem made way to Powerful Chars compared to the BP System )

with a more balanced Dance
Medicineman

From experience, BP system makes the 'all-around' just fine (still comes out as a more fun character than karma generation ever could).  My suggestion to people is still to Sharpie-block the sections of RC dealing with that system and priority.

[Medicineman]

to Sharpie-block the sections of RC

Sharpie Block ??

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Mäx]

But karma generation ISN'T superior in ANY way. It is by far the second most inferior build system--at least in my opinion. It'd be like starting a D&D game and changing the maximum stat before racial mods to 13 and cutting the players' starting money in half.

Also dont get the second part at all, as you can get exactly same amount of money in both karma and BP gen.
And doesn't that first mostly depend on the amount of points you use, personally i would use 1000 karma with the errated karmagen.

[Chrona]

If the critter is dual natured, Natural Weapon may be used with the normal Unarmed Combat skill and physical Damage Value to perform attacks against astral opponents (within reach).

but thats for Critter only
sadly the Devs made a difference between Critter and PCs
for PCs You still need Astral Combat even if You're a Shapeshifter or other DN Creature

with a different Dance
Medicineman

Ah, but normally characters aren't allowed to have Natural Weapons; notice how the description uses the term critter exclusively?

Also, only critters require the Sapience power, but all the PC types that have Natural Weapon (Naga, Centaur, Shapeshifters, Free Spirits) all have Sapience, which makes them "PC Critters" IMO.

What about a Ghoul's claws?
NPC, PC and Feral NPC variety

[Glyph]

I would recommend using the natural weapons rule for all PC shapeshifters, infected with natural weapons such as ghouls, and drakes (although the latter actually state right in their description that they can do so).  There is no point in having one set of rules mechanics for PCs, and one for NPCs.  Some things like PC spirits might need tweaked advancement rules, but should still use the same mechanics (can't use summoning, etc.).


Karmagen is a good system, but it has both advantages and disadvantages compared to build points.  Build points were deliberately made to make some things easier, or more difficult, to get at character creation.  It is easier to get high Attributes, bind foci, and so on.  Karmagen does away with metagaming calculations of "This will be more (or less) expensive to get after char-gen", but that might not always be a good thing.  It depends on whether you like having trolls with high Body, or power foci, be cheaper.

Karmagen makes high Attributes more expensive.  Humans have their niche because of this - they have more points to spend on skills, contacts, or resources because they don't need to buy a metatype (assuming the eratta, which is rumored to be in the most recent printings), and because a metatype costs more to get their Attributes to a decent level.  Honestly, I find that I like humans a lot more in Karmagen.  Their Attribute limitations are a lot less of a disadvantage.  Human awakened, though, are pretty much stuck at Edge: 2 if you want decent stats otherwise.

For things like trolls, karmagen makes Attributes of 9 or higher so expensive that they will require significant sacrifices elsewhere.  Opinions on this are mixed.  Some people think that a troll should be able to get a Strength of 9 as easily as a human gets a Strength of 5.  Other people think that a high Attribute is a high Attribute, period, and that you should have to pay more for it.  People with the former opinion will either like build points, or will heavily house rule karmagen.

Because costs are incremental rather than fixed, low-to-mid level stats are far cheaper.  And I like that.  Low dice pools should be cheaper.  Typically, an optimized character will come out slightly better under karmagen (compared to build points), while a generalist will come out FAR ahead of build points.  This doesn't mess up game balance, though.  A generalist will be able to do more things, but still won't be as good at them, while the optimized character will have a few points left over to be a bit more well-rounded.  This is where karmagen shines - making viable generalists.  For things like an L.A. detective (some combat ability, face ability, break-in ability, and data searching), karmagen is ideal.

Karmagen falls down when it comes to the more exotic options, such as infected, shapeshifters, AIs, and free spirits.  Partly this is because many of these options strongly depended on their BP cost to be balanced.  250 BP out of 400, leaving 150 BP to spend (for a free spirit) is a lot more restrictive than 250 karma out of 750 karma, leaving 500 karma to spend.

The other problem with karmagen is having to buy knowlede skills.  I generally keep myself honest by buying the same number of knowledge skills that I would get as free points using build points.  But with them costing karma to acquire, there is a strong temptation to skimp on them.  Especially since a few low-rating active skills can flesh out a character just as well as knowledge skills can.

The good thing about both character creation systems is that they are very easy to tweak, by adjusting not only the total amount, but component costs (making orks less expensive for a game set in the Ork Underground, charging less for non-combat spells if you want to encourage players to take more utility spells, etc.).  Two common house rules that I have seen for karmagen are giving free knowledge skills like build points does, and not counting special Attributes under the spending cap.

[Makki]

this is just an awesome summary of karmagen, Glyph. Every new paragraph I had to nod and think, yeah, exactly!

[Fenris]

Glyph's rundown of it is really great, IMO. I pretty much swear by Karmagen. We actually use the RC version-we play so little that we tend to use the old attribute costs anyway(plus, we use the more old school slimmer Karma awards on top of it, so it pretty much balances out the progression.) Given that we only get to play  a few times a year, quick progression is the least on our minds, and starting with a more robust character is pretty perfect for us. I just love how it's easier to get those low skills you want to round out your characters. (We do play slightly higher than average power games. I can't say they're elite or anything, but we do like a cut above average.)

That said, if I were to make some houserules for Karmagen myself, it would be somewhat like the German errata, but with some twists.

-Metas cost BP in Karma, keeping this.

-I'd either, however:

Method A: leave the x3 cost into play, as the RC, OR...

Method B: I'd increase it to x5, BUT have everyone buy stats from 1-6 as per normal and then add on extras. x5 cost with the bigger stats does get far too expensive, IMO. Plus it sorta ends up favoring some races over others.

If I want a strong Street Sam(despite Strength being a dumpstat ), I can just roll up Bob the Ork, take a reasonable Strength and cyber it up the rest of the way rather than pay enormous amounts for the 9. x3 cost with everyone starting from 1-6 is a bit TOO cheap, but I think with the x5 that works pretty well. Not sure which route I'd take. Under x3, right now it costs a regular troll 107 Karma to get to Body 9. Under the x5, start from 1 rule, it would cost him 70. So its cheaper, but the troll would ALSO have to purchase up the attributes they take a minus to on top of it. So if x3 Attribute Cost Troll wanted a 9 Body and 3 Charisma(maybe he backs up socially), it would cost 107+15 or 122 Karma. If the same troll took the same attributes in the x5 Variant, it would cost 70+70, or 140 Karma. He'd actually be more expensive the second way, but not by much. My only fear with this is that it would push some characters back into 'archetypes' too much, which is actually something I like to avoid(I actually think stuff like troll faces and ork mages are made of win, and I'd fear this method would start to stifle that a bit. ) Still, it has some benefits. Currently, as it is now, with ''Start at high bases with x5'', it shoves it way too far in the other direction.

-Remove Magic/Resonance/Edge from the limit. Human Mages and Technos end up running into problems here in my experience. At least I'd take Magic or Resonance out of the half Karma limit.

-If using x3 cost, keep the cost of Knowledge and Language skills. That x3 cost is pretty relaxed. If x5 cost, I'd give Intuition+Logicx5 in free Knowledge skill Karma(to be purchased as Karma. So 7 Karma for a 3 rating, for example.) A 3 Logic and 4 Intuition would net 35 Karma, which is a decent little boost; it would enable, if someone wanted an average spread of knowledge/language, 5 skills at rating 3 each. More or less if they wanted to have a lot of low skills or a few higher. Extra would have to come from the bulk Karma pool as per normal.

I'm sold on a lot of this, except for what I think the more ideal attribute spread is. In any case I'd keep it with 750 Karma as the base, and just let the ''less or more'' happen from table to table, depending on what people wanted for their game.

[Mason]

I really enjoy Karmagen. I keep the free knowledges of the BP system, I make metas cost their BP costs times 2, and all attributes are bought up before modified, but the negatives simply cap how high you can buy up the attributes. Works out to orks costing 40, elves costing 60, dwarves costing 50, and trolls costing 80, but no further costs. Other variants, simply double the BP costs.