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Hey, A first aid kit!

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Leevizer

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« on: <02-07-12/1607:55> »
Damnit Bill!

No, anyway, no L4D. The question here is the first aid and it's rating. So if I understand correctly, the level of the first aid kit replaces that of your first aid, unless it's higher. So why  would anyone buy first aid as a skill instead of just maxing out a first-aid kit? Or did I misread or misunderstand something?

CanRay

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« Reply #1 on: <02-07-12/1611:05> »
You're not always going to have a MedKit, and it runs out of supplies.  Your skill never runs out, and is always with you.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

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Leevizer

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« Reply #2 on: <02-07-12/1614:09> »
You're not always going to have a MedKit, and it runs out of supplies.  Your skill never runs out, and is always with you.

...Does that mean that I don't even need a first-aid kit to perform first-aid if I have the skill?

CanRay

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« Reply #3 on: <02-07-12/1625:47> »
You're not always going to have a MedKit, and it runs out of supplies.  Your skill never runs out, and is always with you.
...Does that mean that I don't even need a first-aid kit to perform first-aid if I have the skill?
You need the medical supplies, but not necessarily from a MedKit.

But sometimes you just have to improvise.
Si vis pacem, para bellum

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FastJack

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« Reply #4 on: <02-07-12/1643:54> »
*ahem*
Quote from: SR4A, p. 253
If a trained medtech uses a medkit/autodoc when healing a character, she receives a dice pool modifier equal to the device’s First Aid or Medicine autosoft rating. If the character is untrained, she can still make the test using her own attribute and the device’s rating in place of her skill. If the device is hooked up to a patient and left unattended, simply roll the device’s rating for any tests. Note that medkits and autodocs can be accessed and controlled remotely via the Matrix/wireless link.
In other words, the Rating is added to the dice pool no matter WHAT your character's skill rating is. So, if you have First Aid 6 and a MedKit R6, you add 12 dice to the Dice Pool (plus your attribute/misc modifiers).

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #5 on: <02-07-12/1654:34> »
If I remember right, what is replaced is the maximum hits you can get on the roll to do the healing. That way if you have a good medical kit, you can still keep someone from dying with a 1 in First Aid (which is what I'd imagine someone who has taken one or two CPR courses would have).
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Crash_00

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« Reply #6 on: <02-08-12/1007:08> »
The wording is absolutely horrible. What the rules actually say when it comes to first aid is this:
1. Threshold is (2)
2. You heal a box of damage for each net hit over the threshold (hits - 2)
3. The maximum damage that can be healed is equal to the skill rating being used.
4. First aid must be applied within 12 hours of the damage.
5. First aid can only be used once for a set of wounds.

Now then, the medkit can work in three different ways:
Case A). Trained characters (First Aid 1 or higher) may add the the first aid kit's rating to their dice as a modifier.
Case B). Untrained characters (First Aid at 0) use the device rating in place of their skill.
Case C). The Medkit can be left hooked up to a target and rolls only its device rating for the test.

Now this actually means it works three different ways ruleswise (I said it was worded horribly right). To break it down fully.

Case A). The device rating is not used as a skill but as a modifier. This means you get +Device Rating to your roll, but you're still capped at healing a number of wounds equal to your skill rating (point 3). This may not seem like much, but considering that you need 3 hits to heal one box (Points 1 and 2) which is an average of nine dice, its not a bad investment to take a first aid kits. Afterall a rating 6 kit only adds 2 hits on average which given an average attribute of 3 and a proficient skill 3 would still mean you won't cap out your healing ability on average. Keep in mind that first aid can only be used once, so usually the highest skill level character should be doing it (unless they have racked up the penalties).

Case B). The wording can be taken two ways. First it can be taken to mean that the players skill is treated as the device rating in which case the player is capped at healing a number of wounds equal to the device rating (point 3). Keep in mind that this requires a number of hits equal to device rating+2 which is unlikely to occur unskilled. The second way is that the character uses the medkit as their skill dice (but not in every respect) which would mean that the hero cannot actually heal any wounds (0 skill combined with point 3).

Case C). The medkit uses its device rating for its skill and can heal a maximum number of boxes equal to its device rating (point 3). Keep in mind that this is impossible since it only rolls a number of dice equal to it's device rating and even with all hits it will only heal a number of boxes equal to hits - 2 (Point 1 and 2).

In summary, I think medkits should replace the cap but I can't find a ruling where they actually do.

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #7 on: <02-08-12/1147:38> »
Does that mean if your first aid doesn't go well, that you can pull out a scalpel and stab your patient, then try again on the 'new' damage?

Tsuzua

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« Reply #8 on: <02-08-12/1151:35> »
In summary, I think medkits should replace the cap but I can't find a ruling where they actually do.
The rule you're looking for is on Augmentation page 124. 
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The maximum number of boxes that First Aid can heal is the Rating of the medical equipment or the First Aid skill of the character, whichever is higher (see  pp.  242–244, SR4 ).

Crash_00

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« Reply #9 on: <02-08-12/1201:11> »
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Does that mean if your first aid doesn't go well, that you can pull out a scalpel and stab your patient, then try again on the 'new' damage?
I guess it would depend on the GM, but I would rule that you'd only be able to heal the new damage, as in what's been caused since you last first aided them.

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The rule you're looking for is on Augmentation page 124.
I don't know how I missed that. It's not used in Missions unfortunately, but it's nice to know they addressed the issue at least.

Tsuzua

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« Reply #10 on: <02-08-12/1212:24> »
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The rule you're looking for is on Augmentation page 124.
I don't know how I missed that. It's not used in Missions unfortunately, but it's nice to know they addressed the issue at least.
I bugged Bull about it on the Mission FAQ page so I'm hoping he'll add it.

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #11 on: <02-08-12/1231:56> »
Quote
Does that mean if your first aid doesn't go well, that you can pull out a scalpel and stab your patient, then try again on the 'new' damage?
I guess it would depend on the GM, but I would rule that you'd only be able to heal the new damage, as in what's been caused since you last first aided them.

You do realize that what I described is commonly called 'Surgery'

Crash_00

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« Reply #12 on: <02-08-12/1253:52> »
Surgery would be covered by Medicine though, not first aid. Medicine specifically states that taking new damage qualifies as a new set of wounds.

Van Gogh

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« Reply #13 on: <05-09-13/2344:16> »
So when you use first aid, you have to heal all stun damage before physical damage? Say I have 5 physical damage and 3 stun damage: I get 6 net hits on my first aid test and so I heal 3 stun and 1 physical but cannot heal 4 physical and leave the stun there?

Mithlas

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« Reply #14 on: <05-10-13/0110:43> »
In all of the groups I've seen, you call a set of wounds (ie the bullet holes in Joe) and roll your skill to restore that. You can choose to focus on Stun damage first, but most people heal the physical first and then do stun damage later because stun damage can be healed by resting for an hour (and then you make a healing test), rather than on a 1-day interval as it would be for healing physical damage.