[Crash_00]

Seems to imply that touch can infect.

It's like shaking the hand of a man with aids who didn't wash his hands after he used the restroom, then proceeding to eat a sandwich and getting aids. It doesn't mean that shaking someone with aids hands will give you aids, but the possibility is there if the right factors are involved. Of course more realistic factors would involve open wounds and rough physical contact.

[CanRay]

"Slot you guys, I'm going on my own Shadowrun, with blackjack, and hookers!  In fact, forget the Shadowrun!"

[UmaroVI]

Screw the availability rules, I have nuyen.

[Tsuzua]

Seems to imply that touch can infect.

It's like shaking the hand of a man with aids who didn't wash his hands after he used the restroom, then proceeding to eat a sandwich and getting aids. It doesn't mean that shaking someone with aids hands will give you aids, but the possibility is there if the right factors are involved. Of course more realistic factors would involve open wounds and rough physical contact.

Actually that is the case with ghouls.  The HMHVV III strain (the one that creates ghouls) spreads though contact which is defined in SR (Aug 129) as just skin to skin contact.  You need a chemical seal to be immune (Aug 129).

[Critias]

Which, in fairness, is something that Patrick has tried to kind of retcon away.  He's admitted that a few errors were made in statting up the HMVV nastiness, and their intent was for ghouls to transmit it through bite or claw type stuff, not casual everyday contact.

His signature right here on the forums contains the following link, to his Running Wild errata:  https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1A7YbHZRK4_MFTH6PCO3WKiF-cY_dWHfzBKG4Q63a4mI&pli=1

[Sichr]

Flamethrowers? Anyone? YesYes, you Uncouth in the third row. Im also talking to you 

[Crash_00]

Actually that is the case with ghouls.  The HMHVV III strain (the one that creates ghouls) spreads though contact which is defined in SR (Aug 129) as just skin to skin contact.  You need a chemical seal to be immune (Aug 129).

Right, the virus is spread by contact. While the ghoul could have bodily fluids or viral containing material on his skin that can spread across, it does not mean that the ghoul always does. The ghoul is a carrier for the virus. Contact with the ghoul is not necessarily contact with the virus.

Arguing the other way would mean that you need a chemical seal to pick up a grenade loaded with a viral bio-agent (that hasn't detonated yet) because the grenade is the bio-agent and spreads the bio-agent on contact.

The example I provided above, the man was the carrier and aids was the virus. The man himself was not aids.

[Tsuzua]

Actually that is the case with ghouls.  The HMHVV III strain (the one that creates ghouls) spreads though contact which is defined in SR (Aug 129) as just skin to skin contact.  You need a chemical seal to be immune (Aug 129).

Right, the virus is spread by contact. While the ghoul could have bodily fluids or viral containing material on his skin that can spread across, it does not mean that the ghoul always does. The ghoul is a carrier for the virus. Contact with the ghoul is not necessarily contact with the virus.

Arguing the other way would mean that you need a chemical seal to pick up a grenade loaded with a viral bio-agent (that hasn't detonated yet) because the grenade is the bio-agent and spreads the bio-agent on contact.

The example I provided above, the man was the carrier and aids was the virus. The man himself was not aids.

And that would be injection which is infection though bodily fluids or open wounds.  To be fair, that's the proposed errata change Critias link to eariler.

[Crash_00]

The example is injection, but the point above (differentiating the carrier from the virus) is still completely valid. The point was to make the difference clear, but I'll elaborate.

Augmentation, 129

Diseases spread by contact must touch the target’s skin.

The disease itself must contact the target's skin, not the carrier of the disease. A chemical seal is needed to protect from contact with the disease. Again, look at the grenade example. The Ghoul is the Grenade. The HMHVV III strain is the contact bio-agent. If you have a clean grenade with the virus inside, you cannot catch the virus just by handling the grenade (handling in this case meaning not pulling the pin and dropping it at your feet of course) as its the carrier, not the actual virus.

Now if the grenade is covered in the virus from filling it, or if its gone off and covered with the virus, handling it can give you the disease on contact because the carrier is literally covered in the disease as well. Similarly if the ghoul isn't clean (which most feral ghouls probably won't be) or has been severely wounded (exponentially likely when PCs are around), it will be covered with the virus and normal contact with it will be enough to transfer.

Now let's take a look at Injection so we can see how its different from this scenario.
Augmentation, 129

Diseases spread by injection must be injected into the target’s bloodstream or alternately through an open wound.

In this case, the disease would have to be available like above (ie dirty or bleeding ghoul) but the target would also have to have an open wound for the disease to be absorbed through. Effectively, the grenade would only hurt people with open wounds with its "contact". Note, this is not what I have been saying at all.

In summary, I'm saying that contact vector means the characters have to contact the disease with their skin rather than the carrier. This is different than injection in that with injection the character has to have contact with the disease through an open wound (or injected into them), which is still different than contact with the carrier.

I would also like to point out here than neither injection or contact mention a limitation on bodily fluids.

[Tsuzua]

Augmentation, 129

Diseases spread by contact must touch the target’s skin.

The disease itself must contact the target's skin, not the carrier of the disease. A chemical seal is needed to protect from contact with the disease. Again, look at the grenade example. The Ghoul is the Grenade. The HMHVV III strain is the contact bio-agent. If you have a clean grenade with the virus inside, you cannot catch the virus just by handling the grenade (handling in this case meaning not pulling the pin and dropping it at your feet of course) as its the carrier, not the actual virus.

Even if you go with that, that makes HMHVVIII like the cold and flu.  We're constantly exposed to such germs in normal everyday life but we fight it off without issue 99.9% of the time.  However since the HMHVV is basically unstoppable by one's immune system, a sneezing ghoul just infects you unless you hold your breath and put on a gas mask.

[Crash_00]

If he's contagious yes, and that's one hell of an agonizing cold.

Ghouls, oddly, don't make good house guests.

[CitizenJoe]

If you dumped a dead and bleeding ghoul into the Green River, wouldn't that pretty much turn all of Renton/Auburn into Ghouls?

[Crash_00]

Well it would depend on several factors. Primarily whether or not the ghoul in question is contagious or not. Likewise, how long it takes the virus to die after the host dies. Also, how saturated the water needs to be to effectively carry the virus. I'm not a biologist, so there are probably many many more factors that I'm not considering as well.

[Tsuzua]

If he's contagious yes, and that's one hell of an agonizing cold.

Ghouls, oddly, don't make good house guests.

With this line from Runner Companion 82,

The most characteristic trait shared by all of the Infected is that they are contagious.

It's safe to say that a ghoul is contagious.

As for the body in the river, maybe?  Considering it spreads from skin contact, it could be ghouls just have the virus coming out of their pores, just mucus on skin contact, or all sorts of things.  My feeling is that likely is some way for organized ghouls to infect everyone via tainting the water supply, but it might require a lot of dumped blood/spit.

[Crash_00]

Runner's Companion 82

Infertile Infected
Bonus: 5 BP (10 BP if character has the Infection power) Only Infected characters can take this quality. The virus in this character’s bodily fluids has mutated and is no longer transmissible, or the character was born Infected and the virus was never present in her system. Other characters cannot become Infected by coming in contact with her bodily fluids, and the character loses the Infection power if she has it.

Not all Ghouls are contagious. The books never give us a percentage on just how many are fertile and how many are infertile. Fluff leads me to believe that most are contagious, but most of the ones seen in play from official missions or adventures are infertile from my experience.