[Irian]

Honestly, I don't think it's about "being a dick", it just seems like there are different opinions on how much impact a negative quality must have.  Some people think, that every negative quality has to come into play actively, for example, an incompetent (Pilot Aerospace) character has to find himself in the cockpit of the space shuttle someday. Other people, like me, think, that the limitation of the character's possibilities can be negative enough (depending on the quality). Of course, it is easier to feel that a negative qualitiy has been "abused" with the second way, no doubt about that, which is probably why there are people who prefer the first way. I understand why people feel that way, but I honestly don't agree, as I don't tend to play with people where I have the feeling that I have to prevent "abuses".
It is possible that, as a gm, I'm too soft, thus preventing my players from having some more extreme situations, true, but I can only act as a gm as I would want to be acted upon as a player and there, honestly, I would liked to asked before the gm crippled my character or did anything else drastic to him. It's my character and I want to determine where he goes and how he reacts, otherwise it won't be my character anymore and it's possible that this new character is one I don't want to play anymore... 

And Sichr is surely right, some negative qualities are much more easy to integrate into the gameplay than others. Uncouth comes naturally, every day, while really "roleplaying" sensitive system is probably hard.

[Dracain]

Admitted I understand giving consequences to a player or group that does something stupid, but it just seems like picking on someone for choosing that negative quality when they may have chosen it for any reason, though I doubt many mages will say they chose it so it would come back to haunt them.  Frankly I saw it as something was meant to limit use of augments, not something that means that the player should at some point o\have implants forced upon them aainst their will.

I never stated that its the only way to bring it up, in fact you quoted two ways it can easily come up that I mentioned (the other being the hard choice when good quality ware is offered). It does limit the use of augmentations heavily. The way I see flaws is as a core of the character, they are just as important as the characters  edges, attributes and/or skills. Nothing prevents a character from playing his character a certain way without taking the flaws, but taking the flaw is making it a part of your characters story. 

Not to mention, wouldn't it be cheaper for the mafia to put some kind of collar or bracelet that would kill them instantly if tampered with of the mafia willed it.  I mean, if the mafia are keeping them alive it is for a reason, so they don't want to weaken the mage by putting implants into them, and the mafia certainly would know that would happen, it is a major business focused on secrecy, they known about magic.  I make it clear to my players that I will respond accordingly if they do something stupid and makes someone strong angry, but I don't wanna mess with a players stats without some REALLY big reason, because while it is my campaign, it is their character. 

That would depend entirely on the situation in question. Sure, if its a simple go here, kill this, we'll let you off the hook issue the bracelet would be easier.

If it's more of a "Let's toss a link and simrig into this guy so he'll lead us to his buddies that fragged our warehouse last week" situation, you being weaker in the long run certainly is no skin off their back.

Again, the issue here is not with Sensitive System, it's with the fact that the person is a mage and getting this treatment. If the mage chose sensitive system to be part of his story, he's going to be the one the mob chose for operation sneaky bastards. Not because he's a mage, but because he wanted that to be part of his story. Chances are he'll get it removed pretty soon, but he'll always feel that tug on his soul and feel that itch that you just can't quite get to.

I don't really see hitting a player with a single stat drop as a big issue. I know as a player, I would much rather have a stat drop a point (or even several) than have the character just flat out die randomly. Then again, most of the games I've played and run are a fight to survive rather than a fight to get upgrades. When you get right down to it, the character is the players, but the story is for everyone. Every character in the story needs to overcome challenges.

God I suck at quoting, and I lost my big reply, ugh, either way, I am gonna sum up what I said before real quick.  I think the challenges are already there for a player who uses sensitive system, he can't really do much augmentation, and even a little can be a huge setback, especially if it's a mage.  Honestly, if I wanted to give a mage that went with  sensitive system some downside in active gameplay to that drawback, I would probably send them on a run where there is a lot of anti-magic equipment, taking away their magic (temporarily) and forcing them to rely on their other skills, which can be problematic because a mage who took sensitive system is likely a very heavily focused magician, and won't have much skills outside their magic, then it would be interesting for the mage, who would have to work outside their normal comfort zone (a huge element in storytelling) and  it would give everyone a goal of disabling the anti-magic objects.  Magic who choose sensitive system might be accused of getting "free" BP, but think about it, never will they get fancy cybereyes or a pain editor (which would come in HUGE use for a mage).  And frankly, that means that magic has become their crutch in life, it provides a lot of interesting roleplaying elements.  This character cannot get any changes to their body like everyone else can, no augmentation or changes in any way, in a world where they are considered the norm in many ways.  That would lead them to rely on their magic heavily throughout life, maybe even isolating themselves from society. 

As to your comment about some players needing to grow up, I would like to point out that there is a difference between someone who cannot divide between the game and reality, or someone who gets overly attached to the game, and someone who is simply upset because the character they have worked hard on for hours has just been taken and changed at the core without any way to stop it.  There is after all, a point where the player will likely feel put of because you did single them out and drastically change their character, and than they might feel that your picking on their character and negatively effecting their character to pick on them personally.  Like I said, I can and will kill stupid characters, and than tell the players why I did it, but I won't single them out and exploit their flaw unless there is a story reason for that character to have been singled out for that specific treatment.  If I feel a player is abusing the negative qualities, or is going to, I will not let them take it.  For example, unless I plan on going into space, I am not going to let my players take incompetent (Pilot Aerospace), and if I do plan on going into space, I am not going to force the char with incompetent (Pilot Aerospace) to be the person in the cockpit, though I will probably make it be something he has to deal with at some point or another, I am not going to force him to drive, or railroad the game into a point where he has to pay for choosing that skill.  And even with that example, when flying a spaceship it will not permanently and irrevocably weaken his character (unless he is dead, but if he was the only guy who could drive out of the whole group in a life or death situation, that is something he should take up with his team). 

We should also remember, uncouth gives more then sensitive system (and kind of sucks).  Uncouth is supposed to be for characters that hardly leave their home, for someone who doesn't have social experience, and doesn't know how to act in society.  Uncouth is meant to be heavily roleplayed, whereas sensitive system will likely have an effect on the character and their outlook on certain things, and it does make it so they cannot take augments without paying out the nose (sometimes literally), so this effect their everyday lives, sometimes less than uncouth, sometimes more. 

[Crash_00]

Honestly, if I wanted to give a mage that went with  sensitive system some downside in active gameplay to that drawback, I would probably send them on a run where there is a lot of anti-magic equipment, taking away their magic (temporarily) and forcing them to rely on their other skills, which can be problematic because a mage who took sensitive system is likely a very heavily focused magician, and won't have much skills outside their magic, then it would be interesting for the mage, who would have to work outside their normal comfort zone (a huge element in storytelling) and  it would give everyone a goal of disabling the anti-magic objects.

How is that, in any way, a story element that has anything to do with sensitive system? All it has to do with is the person being a mage (sensitive system or not).

Magic who choose sensitive system might be accused of getting "free" BP, but think about it, never will they get fancy cybereyes or a pain editor (which would come in HUGE use for a mage).  And frankly, that means that magic has become their crutch in life, it provides a lot of interesting roleplaying elements.  This character cannot get any changes to their body like everyone else can, no augmentation or changes in any way, in a world where they are considered the norm in many ways.  That would lead them to rely on their magic heavily throughout life, maybe even isolating themselves from society.

They can though. It's not full-blown bio-rejection. It merely halves their essence resource for cyberware. A mage who takes it has the added downside of having magic affected more. Again, that isn't a sensitive system issue, but a mage issue.

I guess this is the time to point out, it doesn't matter whether the sensitive system character is a mundane or mage, he's the one getting picked in such a situation. Likewise, if I'm having to "randomly" determine which of the group is getting nabbed and tortured, you can bet it will be the guy with a Low Pain Threshold. I've actually seen more mundies with Sensitive System over the years than awakened.

There is after all, a point where the player will likely feel put of because you did single them out and drastically change their character, and than they might feel that your picking on their character and negatively effecting their character to pick on them personally.

Well a few quick points. Losing a point of magic is not a drastic change. Maybe its coming from previous editions where magic loss was easier to accumulate than nuyen, but losing a bit of a renewable resource (you can keep initiating and buying up magic) is not crippling and dramatically harming the character at all. It would be another thing if it were a horribly limited stat, but even then I don't think it would be a crippling change if it's a once in a campaign deal. I don't really buy into this belief that all character growth should be both mechanical and positive development.

Like I said, I can and will kill stupid characters, and than tell the players why I did it, but I won't single them out and exploit their flaw unless there is a story reason for that character to have been singled out for that specific treatment.  If I feel a player is abusing the negative qualities, or is going to, I will not let them take it.

This goes above and beyond letting players take inappropriate flaws. I have no qualms killing characters when they botch things up bad. I won't usually kill them for one bad roll, but stupidity (including lack of prep work/legwork) is the main reason for fatality in most SR games.

The point here is that as a GM, you make the story. If a player takes the time to tailor their character and point out parts of their character that are going to be part of the story, it's a GM's job to make sure they come up. If a player takes the pistols skill, I'm going to make sure there are some combats in the story for that skill to be used. Bringing up negative flaws falls in the same camp.

Uncouth is meant to be heavily roleplayed, whereas sensitive system will likely have an effect on the character and their outlook on certain things, and it does make it so they cannot take augments without paying out the nose (sometimes literally), so this effect their everyday lives, sometimes less than uncouth, sometimes more.

Mechanically it doesn't prevent augmentations at all. It just limits what is viable. A character with Sensitive System can still get a maxed out set of cybereyes or ears, a half limb, or internal commlink without losing more than one magic using only basic ware. Keep in mind it doesn't impact bio-ware at all either. In game, the character will likely be on immune suppressants and having to constantly get minor work done to remove build up on implants or on the opposite end of the spectrum, taking constant immune boosters because the augs killed their immune system.

If a character gets implanted, they lose a point of essence and magic, but they aren't likely to keep the implants they received usually. Once they get them ripped out, they will still have a point of essence to spend on ware before they lose anymore magic.

Let's also keep in mind that I have never said "A character with Sensitive System must be secretly implanted by cyber ninja mafia at some point during the campaign," I merely listed it as one possible avenue of bringing the flaw into the story. What I've said repeatedly is that flaws should play a part of the story, and I don't think that part of the story should be passive.

Once removing the ware, the character has a hard choice to make. Does he use that essence up on new augs that he wants and suffer from it as his body fights to reject the augmentations making it literally a pain for power choice, or does he live with the constant thought that he could be just a bit better than normal with a little work done.

[CitizenJoe]

This goes above and beyond letting players take inappropriate flaws. I have no qualms killing characters when they botch things up bad. I won't usually kill them for one bad roll, but stupidity (including lack of prep work/legwork) is the main reason for fatality in most SR games.

I apply this to 'Getting away clean' as well.  If they take steps ahead of time and afterwards to erase their tracks, I'm not gonna create some Batmanesque super detective to find them.

Re: Giving out more build points during play... HAAIILL NO!  If you get shot in the spine and suddenly you're a paraplegic, you don't get to suddenly be a computer genius.  Build points are just for generating the characters at the start, once the game gets going, it is all in game reasons for stuff.

[Sichr]

Re: Giving out more build points during play... HAAIILL NO!  If you get shot in the spine and suddenly you're a paraplegic, you don't get to suddenly be a computer genius.  Build points are just for generating the characters at the start, once the game gets going, it is all in game reasons for stuff.

IDN what part you REplied for, but I totaly agree. At my posts Ive been always talking about character creation proces. But...there IS a possibility someone can get such negative quality during gameplay. That would be arrow to the knee. Well again, if supported by story, I cannot see why not.

[Dracain]

I am not saying that all character growth has to be positive, not at all, but my point is simply that something that permanently lowers the cap on a stat shouldn't be done unless the players do something incredibly stupid.  And even then, I would have the mafia go after the least combat capable guy, if that was the mage, fine, if that was the face, then he is the one with the bomb in his brain, and so on.  I just don't think every flaw needs to be actively brought into gameplay.  Some flaws seem to be meant to be in the background, while others are meant to be active.  I always pegged sensitive system as a background flaw.  Also, while you're right about how sensitive system doesn't stop augmentations, and how it only makes cyberware cost more essence (I forgot it was cyberware only), I would like to point out that for a mage, double the essence cost does severely limit cyberware.  Though now that I think about this, it doesn't matter if the mage has sensitive system or not because the essence loss of all the stuff you mentioned is still less than one, even when doubled, so whether the mage has sensitive system or not, they only lose 1 magic.  Also, the way my suggestion effects sensitive system is in a roundabout way, the mage who chooses sensitive system relies on their magic more than a mage who doesn't have it, and as such, shutting down their magic places them outside their comfort zone, making them need to think completely differentely, versus just slicing their char open and taking away one magic point.  I admit my idea doesn't really have much to do with sensitive system, I figured that it is rare that something like that just directly hinders someone, rather it does so indirectly.  Still, I admit that the idea sounds rather dumb in that context now that I look at it. 

Also, who brought up giving BP out during play?  That is ridiculous. 

[CitizenJoe]

Sichr did one page back

[All4BigGuns]

IMO it is a GM + Player issue, which hardly can be generalized, but it seems that for lot of people here is normal option, when during character creation there is a moment, where player says:

P: Well, you know, Im playing the mage, and since cyberware would cause essence loss and lowers my magic, Im not going to take any during the gameplay and character developement.

GM: OK, so take another 15 Build points and use them as you will.

Agreed. There's making sure negative qualities are appropriately roleplayed, and then there's just being a dick.

With stress put on the world "Roleplayed"

And note, that once again we are talking about Sensitive system in thread dedicated to Antisocial characters.
It is much less possible, that character with Sensitive system would have to undergo some kind of replacement surgery, that possibility, that Uncouth character would have to participate on some kind of social interaction. The difference is
Maybe once per life  X 100 times every single day at least

If you mean this post, then it seems pretty clear that this is a dramatization of a pre-chargen discussion between a GM and a player.

[ArkangelWinter]

Just because this is so out of hand that the quotes are now larger than the posts, I want to reiterate my earlier point. Some guys think its awesome when their ninja has to cope with paraplegia, so I hit em hard. Other players dont, so I hit em with hardships that dont rape their sheets, just their nuyen or contacts or such. Its a matter of knowing your players, even within the same team, and making it fun for them through knowing.

[Dracain]

IMO it is a GM + Player issue, which hardly can be generalized, but it seems that for lot of people here is normal option, when during character creation there is a moment, where player says:

P: Well, you know, Im playing the mage, and since cyberware would cause essence loss and lowers my magic, Im not going to take any during the gameplay and character developement.

GM: OK, so take another 15 Build points and use them as you will.

Agreed. There's making sure negative qualities are appropriately roleplayed, and then there's just being a dick.

With stress put on the world "Roleplayed"

And note, that once again we are talking about Sensitive system in thread dedicated to Antisocial characters.
It is much less possible, that character with Sensitive system would have to undergo some kind of replacement surgery, that possibility, that Uncouth character would have to participate on some kind of social interaction. The difference is
Maybe once per life  X 100 times every single day at least

If you mean this post, then it seems pretty clear that this is a dramatization of a pre-chargen discussion between a GM and a player.

That is what I thought as well, so I was confused when someone mentioned giving BP during play. 

[Sichr]

Those who understand, thank you, those who not, I hope now its clear lets not make the quoting contest of this

Just because this is so out of hand that the quotes are now larger than the posts, I want to reiterate my earlier point. Some guys think its awesome when their ninja has to cope with paraplegia, so I hit em hard. Other players dont, so I hit em with hardships that dont rape their sheets, just their nuyen or contacts or such. Its a matter of knowing your players, even within the same team, and making it fun for them through knowing.

In fact, If the character is paraplegic from creation, I have hard time trying to imagine him as a ninja
But on the other side, I understand what you are talking about. You šwant to treat your player`s character nice so they dont have to cope with unwanted consequences.
Ill ask you about this: Do you use Black IC in your games? Do you use Shadow spirits? Posession power? Bug spirits? Infection? Firearms? Manipulation spells? Combat spells? Shedims inhabiting  bodies of astraly projected mages? Mutations? EMP? Malware? Psychotropic matrix attacks? Biological warfare? Magic background?...add whatever else...this are all ways to cripple character, change its course of developement and so on. Sure, you can also Kill the character...i.e insects are good for this wellthis are things that happen quite often during my runs, because those things are quite common threats in the sixth world. From time to time I kill the character, from time to time I impose some story elemnt on one of them he didnt asked for, just because I want to.
I simply dont agree that character is completely and totaly under player`s control. Not after character creation is done. In that moment, he is thrown into the world full of dangers and his further existence relies in the interaction within this world, and most time it means character needs to deal with lot of shit, because he/she/it made a choice to become Shadowrunner: Terorris/criminal operative acting in the most dangerous business there is.

[Leevizer]

That is why Redmond Barrens is such a safe place. Because gangs are practicaly harmless. They dont have their own magicians, they dont have some extra bonuses for playing on their own territory, and they never come in superrior number. Look. I know that most firefights with gangs are more spice than raw meat in the run, well if your GM use averything gangs have to offer, it`s not such rosegarden walk as you describe it. Use of molotov cocktails, some barghests/hellhounds and othe paracritters, gang street shamans, even a sniper from time to time. And even if you are standing amongst 30 gangers armed with Streetsweepers, you need to wipe them out in the first pass before any of them pulls the trigger, or get ready to get hurt. And I know, that sometimes dicepools make this situation riddiculously easy to survive. In this situations I strongly recomend my players to get some feeling of the street and dont start acting like omnipotent arogant dicepool monsters.

Why does this "30 roomsweepers" situation make me think that everyone in the room is going to be dead very soon...

No, but seriously. It all depends on the type of gang you use, and how you want to use it. For a more light scenario, you can use gangers to come and get shot. Or use a large gang as a major opponent in a scenario. Then again, in these gritty, dark and "edgy" scenes you seem to play, it is completely plausible to just say that by stepping outside the shadowrunners constantly have red dots on their foreheads as the gangs extensive sniper network is keeping constant watch, and their mages and hackers are on constant patrol to see if anything is up, and when there is something up, and the snipers can't just shoot them, they send their extensive army of gang members (atleast, what, fifty guys?) to shoot the people they blame for it.

Since CLEARLY, every gang has resources like this. Did it come to your mind that there are some smaller gangs in the world, too? This seems more like... High-class mafia activity, and only in an area that they need secured badly. Although I do agree that this IS possible, but I can't see *Gangs* doing this.

[Crash_00]

You don't have to have a sniper rifle to snipe, and even most small gangs will have 30 to 50 members in their home ground. Room sweepers and super warhawks are some of the cheapest heavy pistols around, and moltov cocktails are a staple of ganger life in the SR universe.

Doesn't really seem that out there to me.

Now the situation you described is higher scale, but that's a different subject that doesn't really resemble the quoted post at all.

[Sichr]

Yeah I know. Most of us use gangs as a minor threat or cannon fodder to add some flavour to the campaign. I completely understand that and Im not telling you that every gang going to hit you hard. I was talking about situation in gang HQ possibly, and having a sniper (or at least guy with good hunting riffle) somewhere around is move that needs no tactical genius.
Note that Roomsweeper are something different from Streetsweeper (I hope I recall it right, that half-improvised jurry-rigged weapon in Arsenal)
Well take currens situation into consideration.
Tempo wars left most suriving gangs with some good resources, Ghost Cartels  SB implies even about milspec hardware on the streets. When you read ten gangs, yes, some of them are low level threat, while some of them (like Blindfish) have resources beyond common knowledge.
I understand that there is low level gang of local thugs on every corner, and dealing with them is not worth spending bullets, well its good to have some gang knowledge to distinguish those from some Ancients who are on the long ride across the states, taking coffee before they continue.
Otherwise...compare to real state of events: i.e. Hells Angels are well organized group of criminals with good conections in every kind of trade and wide scale of tools and options. On the other side some kind of ghetto hipsters and wannabies.
Conclusion: When dealing with gang, avoid carelesness and do not underestimate legwork, as in any other case. And act accordingly to the fact, that single bullet can get you killed.

[ArkangelWinter]

@Sichr: I referenced my earlier post in this thread, where I said I gave a player's ninja style char paraplegia through in-game events and he thought it was a great growth opportunity. He ended up fulfulling a similar role as a bitter, crippled rigger as he had as a fun-loving burglar. But other players might not be so keen on having their concepts trashed, so I hit them with contact death, nuyen lose, housing destruction, girlfriend rape, personal rape, family death etc. just dont warp their sheet because unlike my first example, they dont think getting randon negative BP is as fun as dealing with a plot problem that doesnt cripple their sheet per se.