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Starting a Lone Star game and would appreciate input

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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #60 on: <03-09-12/2042:04> »
You don't know that if you just start shooting.  SINless or not, you have the right to defend yourself.  If Lonestar just opens up on you without declaring who they are, you can legally defend yourself.  You'll need appropriate witnesses and a good lawyer.  But if you pull some run and then Lonestar doesn't follow proper procedure, you get off scott free.  In fact, Lonestar might pull that stunt specifically to get you back out on the street.  "We did OUR job, but a sleezy lawyer got him off."

Critias

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« Reply #61 on: <03-09-12/2104:10> »
You don't know that if you just start shooting.  SINless or not, you have the right to defend yourself.  If Lonestar just opens up on you without declaring who they are, you can legally defend yourself.  You'll need appropriate witnesses and a good lawyer.  But if you pull some run and then Lonestar doesn't follow proper procedure, you get off scott free.  In fact, Lonestar might pull that stunt specifically to get you back out on the street.  "We did OUR job, but a sleezy lawyer got him off."
Well, no.  If you're SINless, you don't have the (legal) right to do anything at all;  because you don't exist.  Morally, ethically?  I absolutely agree, self-defense is a right I take very seriously.  But in the ugly, dystopian, future of Shadowrun?  If you're a non-person, you're absolutely a non-person.  It's much like being declared a bandit in ancient Rome -- you have no rights as a citizen, period.

ShadowChaser13

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« Reply #62 on: <03-09-12/2159:54> »
Never run a lone star campaign, that being said maybe some ofthe way  organize it would help you out.  If thepcs have run in, i usually run checks tween session to see if they get one on their tail.

First off i treat em like a company.  New guys will have crap gear, probably second hand.  i mean ever start at any company?  the pcs will just be bodies on the street...basic lone star cannon fodder for the corp to write about as heros if they get killed.  thats good pr ;D
"here's your weapon rookie"
"is that blood?"
"dammit, Fitz was supposed to wipe that down"

lethal v non lethal
thats all neighborhood dependant.  LS guns down some SINless slug, thats technically not a crime.  hey wants to work upper class he has to watch more carefully.

i saw a post saying you wanted gritty, did you consider glitchy gear for the first run or two?  sg links cutting in and out... bad radio reception....augmented reflexes shut down.   i wouldn't say screw the players with it, but for character building might be interesting.  My guess would be most lone stars that survive their first tour buy their own stuff. 
you want to limit nuyen,give em alimony or child support that eats up their paychecks.  put it as a pc pentaly for extra bp. 

i guess the gist is just bc the corp is in security. doesnt mean its going to try and protects its new guys past the minimum its required to.  look at a mall cop...then picture him in an armored jacket with a riot gun...theres your typical lone star guy
Watch your back,
Shoot straight,
Conserve ammo,
And.....

SC13

under_score

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« Reply #63 on: <03-10-12/0304:57> »
If you're a non-person, you're absolutely a non-person.  It's much like being declared a bandit in ancient Rome -- you have no rights as a citizen, period.

I don't think that's completely true.  In Vice, it says that SINless can only be held in custody for up to 7 days.  Sure, it's more than double the limit for SINners, but there is some limited protection in the system for the SINless.  Of course, it also says that if they have reason to believe that you've given them a fake SIN, they can hold you until they verify the authenticity of your SIN, and as they have no time constraint on that they can effectively hold you indefinitely. 

I read that as even the SINless, probationary citizens have minimal rights, but that those rights are often abused. 

The larger problem with just opening fire with lethal intent is that LS has no clear way to know (generally) that their targets don't have SINs.  And even if they believe them to be SINless, it's dangerous to risk a PR fiasco if it turns out they do have SINs.  And, perhaps more importantly for my game, any number of people who may resist arrest or otherwise avoid the detectives won't necessarily be culprits so much as leads.  Hard to question a witness if he's dead, SIN or no SIN. 

Critias

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« Reply #64 on: <03-10-12/0323:16> »
If you're a non-person, you're absolutely a non-person.  It's much like being declared a bandit in ancient Rome -- you have no rights as a citizen, period.

I don't think that's completely true.  In Vice, it says that SINless can only be held in custody for up to 7 days.  Sure, it's more than double the limit for SINners, but there is some limited protection in the system for the SINless.  Of course, it also says that if they have reason to believe that you've given them a fake SIN, they can hold you until they verify the authenticity of your SIN, and as they have no time constraint on that they can effectively hold you indefinitely. 

I read that as even the SINless, probationary citizens have minimal rights, but that those rights are often abused. 

The larger problem with just opening fire with lethal intent is that LS has no clear way to know (generally) that their targets don't have SINs.  And even if they believe them to be SINless, it's dangerous to risk a PR fiasco if it turns out they do have SINs.  And, perhaps more importantly for my game, any number of people who may resist arrest or otherwise avoid the detectives won't necessarily be culprits so much as leads.  Hard to question a witness if he's dead, SIN or no SIN.
Yeah, a SINless can only be held for seven days...if you take the time to arrest 'im and drag him into the station, creating electronic evidence of them and stuff.  ;)  Like so much else, it just comes down to the "feel" of the game you want to play.  To the officer in question, it'll come down to what kind of neighborhood he's in when stuff goes down, what kind of day he had, what the SINner/SINless person looks like, what they're doing, what their metaspecies is, how many other cops are around, how many other civvies are around, how many other perps are around...and on and on and on.

But in the wireless age, one of the assumptions is that it's a lot more necessary to have a solid fake SIN, just for everyday travel and stuff.  So the implication of that is that it's easier to spot someone with no SIN (real or fake).  So if the shit's going down and a high-strung cop hasn't got any SIN information popping up on his heads-up display, while staring down a group of folks causing trouble, as he sweeps them with his smartlink, facial recognition software, and whatever other goodies you decide a beat cop has?

Well, shit.  The most that might come of it, once he starts pulling the trigger, is explaining to the precinct Quartermaster that he's awful sorry about getting it mixed up, the magazine of gel rounds versus the magazine of real ammo, and all... 

PR fiasco, PR schmiasco.  Sometimes I like my dystopic cops to be, well, dystopic.  Sometimes that means they do shoot now and ask questions later, especially if they don't think the person they're shooting at has any legal rights.

Crimsondude

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« Reply #65 on: <03-10-12/0402:28> »
PR fiascos only happen when the media gives a fuck, and given what little regard I have for the media IRL the dystopian world Critias and I run in, well ... Yeah, there may be a probe into bullet shortages in LS-patrolled jurisdictions by NBS affiliates when KE needs help messing with the Star. But that's what the local Police Officers Benevolence Foundation is for—to help hide discrepancies.
« Last Edit: <03-10-12/0408:18> by James Meiers »

under_score

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« Reply #66 on: <03-10-12/0406:45> »
To the officer in question, it'll come down to what kind of neighborhood he's in when stuff goes down, what kind of day he had, what the SINner/SINless person looks like, what they're doing, what their metaspecies is, how many other cops are around, how many other civvies are around, how many other perps are around...and on and on and on.

...

PR fiasco, PR schmiasco.  Sometimes I like my dystopic cops to be, well, dystopic.  Sometimes that means they do shoot now and ask questions later, especially if they don't think the person they're shooting at has any legal rights.

And that's why I'm excited for this game.  To see how the players (as Lone Star detectives) choose to handle these situations.  If one of them happens to kill a SINless ork ganger who might have had a lead, they'll have to find the evidence they need some other way and he may catch a little flak from his bosses and a few high fives from some of his peers.  But if it turns out that, that particular ork ganger was a SINner (which I'll know in advance rather than deciding afterwards in order to punish my players...they can punish themselves enough anyway), then they'll be catching some serious hell (risk getting transferred to the Redmond Barrens for one thing). 

As for the media and KE, that'll certainly be a component for the game.  Since I won't be threatening them with the dangers of getting caught by cops or corps (as I would a regular shadowrunning team), I get to threaten them with getting laid off when LS loses the city contract. 

Crimsondude

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« Reply #67 on: <03-10-12/0412:03> »
If ork gangers are considered witnesses or leads (Good luck getting them to talk, btw), chances are they can just convict their favored chosen target on false grounds for any number of reasons using a multitude of means from false evidence to coerced confessions.

As devious as my runners are, the cops are a hundred times worse.
« Last Edit: <03-10-12/0413:35> by James Meiers »

under_score

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« Reply #68 on: <03-10-12/0418:02> »
If ork gangers are considered witnesses or leads (Good luck getting them to talk, btw), chances are they can just convict their favored chosen target on false grounds for any number of reasons using a multitude of means from false evidence to coerced confessions.

As devious as my runners are, the cops are a hundred times worse.

In that vein, I will at some point face them with a particularly difficult case to solve.  It'll be a high profile case and there'll be heat on them to pick a suspect and find enough to make it stick, regardless if they actually find the guilty perp or not.  One of my players is playing a fresh out of the academy white hat, and even some of the others may have qualms convicting the wrong person.  But with the brass breathin' down their necks, what will they do? 

Crimsondude

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« Reply #69 on: <03-10-12/0446:19> »
Shoot him with the dead perp's gun and call it a day.

SeriousOne338

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« Reply #70 on: <03-12-12/1232:40> »
Why shoot him in the head with his gun when you can use a ceased street gun and shoot him with that. From all I've read Lone Star is not interested in justice, shoot first, shoot some more, arrest the survivors and call it a day.
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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #71 on: <03-12-12/1303:19> »
Lone Star is a corporation.  There are TWO things they are very interested in.
1) Don't get sued.
2) Keep your contracts.

Cover ups cost money.  They do it because not covering it up costs even more.  But who's paying for the cover up?  The offending officer...  not in money, but in perks.  Gun down a bunch of civilians going after a perp, ya, they got your back THIS time.  But but officer McTriggerhappy is going to find himself assigned to a Barrens patrol if he does it again.  And if he accidentally hits someone important, that coverup slides the other way and suddenly he's a rogue officer out on the street with no support.

Crash_00

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« Reply #72 on: <03-12-12/1327:08> »
Well ya, but SINless aren't real civilians. They're just illegally living in the land creating barren areas that could be used for better purposes if they'd up and leave (or were cleared out).

ArkangelWinter

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« Reply #73 on: <03-12-12/1407:31> »
Well ya, but SINless aren't real civilians. They're just illegally living in the land creating barren areas that could be used for better purposes if they'd up and leave (or were cleared out).

I'd rather clear Bug City than Redmond Barrens. At least in Chicago you know you're facing bugs, not God-only-knows-what the gangs, runners, and malicious spirits have.

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #74 on: <03-12-12/1439:40> »
Looking at Seattle 2072, I see that 89% of the downtown population is corporate affiliated (i.e. have SINs).  The rest may have SINs but aren't corporate affiliated.  Even in Puyallup, 18% are corporate affiliated. Now, let's say you just start shooting witnesses Downtown in order to sort things out later... If you geek five people, what's the chance that none of them have SINs?  EXTREMELY small.  Now, go on your shoot out in the Barrens... You've got about a 1/3 chance of not getting your hoop fried by a corporate lawsuit.  Admittedly, you probably whacked  a mafia soldier, but if you survive the incident there probably isn't much they can do after the fact.