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Sniper/Mage is it possable

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Crash_00

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« Reply #45 on: <03-16-12/1312:39> »
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You can't use two separate called shots on the same attack. You can either call for extra DV, or to negate armor, but not both.
Rules source? I have yet to see one stating that you can't. It merely takes a free action per shot called. If you're taking the time for four take aim actions (one to negate range and three for the +1 bonus), that's two full action phases, plenty of time to use two free actions to call you shot for increased DV and negating armor.
 
Now, before you try to use the common debunk of what has to immediately follow the call shot action, the actual text is: This action must be immediately followed by a Take Aim, Fire Weapon, Throw Weapon, or Melee Unarmed Attack. Take Aim, Call Shot, Take Aim, Take Aim, Call Shot, Take Aim, Fire Weapon is a perfectly valid list of actions.

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No, they actually can't: SR4A 171.
What are you referencing exactly? The only thing I can find that remotely looks like it might be misinterpreted here is: Additionally, the passengers gain protection from the vehicle’s chassis, adding the Armor of the vehicle to any personal armor the characters are wearing. Called shots may be used to circumvent one armor or the other but not both.

You can't call a shot to negate vehicle armor and personal armor. Personal armor is worn armor, blatantly defined in the sentence, and a rigger cocoon is most certainly not worn armor (it has a barrier rating, is immobile and has that pesky habit of having to be strapped into). I guess you can rule it is, but at that point you might as well just lump vehicle armor and buildings into personal armor as well.

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Because the people doing the transport aren't morons, and do the unloading/loading of the target inside a building, ie, the exact time they would expect a sniper to try something and thus will have the maximum security, everyone on alert, etc etc, and that they can do on ground of their choosing?
Right, which would have to be an interior capable of holding vehicle, which would most likely be on the outer edge of the building. Firing through most walls is significantly easier than firing through the transport of doom. Hell low end blast bunkers are only an armor rating of 32. A secure garage is more likely to be in Armored/Reinforced 24 range which is easy as pie for a sniper rifle to penetrate with a decent wielder. If you do the proper planning you can pull it off without a hitch despite the high alert during this time. After all, the high alert is because it is, in fact, easier to pull off during this time.

Shane Granger

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« Reply #46 on: <03-16-12/1340:48> »
I don't see why he has to choose one or the other, they're both better in some aspect. Just put skill points in both and when you need to kill the shit out of something big pull out the gauss rifle, and if your on a stealthier or non lethal run take out the sniper rifle. Why argue about whats better when it mostly comes down to personal taste, stopping power vs versatility.

Mirikon

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« Reply #47 on: <03-16-12/1443:49> »
Umaro, your example is apples and oranges. Yes, you don't take down an APC with a sniper rifle. You use an IED or RPG to disable it, or an assault cannon/bazooka to take it out. Your example is like saying "You can't use a screwdriver to loosen bolts, so clearly the wrench is the superior tool."

Sniper rifles are anti-personnel weapons, not anti-vehicle weapons. In a pinch, they can serve as the latter, especially with APDS ammo, if the vehicle isn't too heavily armored, but that isn't it's intended role. At most, you should only use a sniper rifle to do called shots to blast the tires, or to try and put a round through the windshield of the vehicle, which typically has less armor than the armor plates on the sides. A sniper rifle is a precision instrument, while an assault cannon is a sledgehammer. Yes, the sledgehammer does more raw damage, and punches through more armor. But the scalpel cuts only what you need to, and is better suited for things like not calling down the national guard/local military upon your head.

Sniper rifles also are easier to get and replace, which makes them much better for assassinations, since there will be times when you have to ditch the weapon or stash it someplace to avoid being caught. And it is a lot easier to stash a sniper rifle than an assault cannon with the accompanying backpack to power it.
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Angelone

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« Reply #48 on: <03-16-12/1502:52> »
Y'all are also forgetting the mage part of the equation, so what if the target is inside a rigger cocoon inside an APC? Whip up some spirits and hold one in reserve, send the rest to distract the magical protection, and have the last manifest inside the rigger cocoon with the target. Done.
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Xzylvador

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« Reply #49 on: <03-16-12/1517:09> »
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You can't use two separate called shots on the same attack. You can either call for extra DV, or to negate armor, but not both.
Rules source? I have yet to see one stating that you can't. It merely takes a free action per shot called. If you're taking the time for four take aim actions (one to negate range and three for the +1 bonus), that's two full action phases, plenty of time to use two free actions to call you shot for increased DV and negating armor.
 
Now, before you try to use the common debunk of what has to immediately follow the call shot action, the actual text is: This action must be immediately followed by a Take Aim, Fire Weapon, Throw Weapon, or Melee Unarmed Attack. Take Aim, Call Shot, Take Aim, Take Aim, Call Shot, Take Aim, Fire Weapon is a perfectly valid list of actions.
Yep, perfectly valid. If your intention was to waste 4 Simple actions for a +1. Only the last Take Aim counts, the rest is lost.
Take Aim can not be interrupted for any other action, not even Free actions (eg. Call Shot). SR4A 148
So no, you can't do that. The only possible sequence is Call Shot, followed with Take Aim a number of times, then shoot.

Tsuzua

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« Reply #50 on: <03-16-12/1521:10> »
Rules source? I have yet to see one stating that you can't. It merely takes a free action per shot called. If you're taking the time for four take aim actions (one to negate range and three for the +1 bonus), that's two full action phases, plenty of time to use two free actions to call you shot for increased DV and negating armor.
 
Now, before you try to use the common debunk of what has to immediately follow the call shot action, the actual text is: This action must be immediately followed by a Take Aim, Fire Weapon, Throw Weapon, or Melee Unarmed Attack. Take Aim, Call Shot, Take Aim, Take Aim, Call Shot, Take Aim, Fire Weapon is a perfectly valid list of actions.
You can't call a shot after taking aim without losing the aim effect.  Under Take Aim SR4A 148, "Take Aim actions are cumulative, but the benefits are lost if the character takes any other kind of action—including a Free Action—at any time."  So I guess you can technically stack call shots by call shot, take aim, call shot, take aim, eat a sandwich, call shot, take aim xN, shoot and get 3 called shot effects.  This is because calling a shot effect's never goes away RAW, just has restricted what you can do following it.  Since take aim allows you to "break sequence", you can get out of the call shot requirement. 

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What are you referencing exactly? The only thing I can find that remotely looks like it might be misinterpreted here is: Additionally, the passengers gain protection from the vehicle’s chassis, adding the Armor of the vehicle to any personal armor the characters are wearing. Called shots may be used to circumvent one armor or the other but not both.

You can't call a shot to negate vehicle armor and personal armor. Personal armor is worn armor, blatantly defined in the sentence, and a rigger cocoon is most certainly not worn armor (it has a barrier rating, is immobile and has that pesky habit of having to be strapped into). I guess you can rule it is, but at that point you might as well just lump vehicle armor and buildings into personal armor as well.
I believe he's counting the rigger cocoon as a second barrier.  Now if this falls under vehicle armor, passenger armor, or both for the purposes of called shots, I don't know.  I bet you could load this guy down a lot of armor anyways as a way to prevent escape as well and that'll apply.

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Right, which would have to be an interior capable of holding vehicle, which would most likely be on the outer edge of the building. Firing through most walls is significantly easier than firing through the transport of doom. Hell low end blast bunkers are only an armor rating of 32. A secure garage is more likely to be in Armored/Reinforced 24 range which is easy as pie for a sniper rifle to penetrate with a decent wielder. If you do the proper planning you can pull it off without a hitch despite the high alert during this time. After all, the high alert is because it is, in fact, easier to pull off during this time.
Generally they're on high alert because there are more people on alert at the endpoint.  In transit, they just have whatever they bought along which is going to be on alert.  Either way, you're going to have to shoot though a lot of barriers.  It's also likely not going to be a good ambush point because whoever built the base would consider snipers sniping at them whereas you can't feasible do that over all of a highway/skyway.

Really the problem is that sniper rifles aren't worth the cost to learn.  In situations where you need to pwn something hard, heavy weapons are great and you have a variety of options.  If you're ambushing people at a distance, automatics (either though battle rifles or honestly assault rifles) works just as well and have all sorts of non-sniping related uses. 

In the one situation where sniper rifles shine, over 600m shooting where you must make sure no one can hear you, you can just default.  If you have a high agility score a SR combat type has, you can call shot and still hit.  Agility 7 -1 default +2 smartlink -4 call shot and using an image magnification gives you 4 dice and you only need 1 hit to connect (you'll make it 80% of the time or you might be able to buy the hit since you can take your time).  Throw a tacnet in there and you have 8 dice which is more than enough (hit 96% of the time).

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Y'all are also forgetting the mage part of the equation, so what if the target is inside a rigger cocoon inside an APC? Whip up some spirits and hold one in reserve, send the rest to distract the magical protection, and have the last manifest inside the rigger cocoon with the target. Done.
The reason why you don't do that is because that's what you ought to always do as a mage.  Thus a mage sniper is actually just a dude with binoculars and you never really need a gun. 

Angelone

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« Reply #51 on: <03-16-12/1541:02> »
I agree with mixing it up to cover your tracks, but if the target really has to die and has so much protection why not go with the option most likely to succeed? As a mage you need to know when to use spells, spirits, or guns. 
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K_killn

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« Reply #52 on: <03-16-12/1549:27> »
This is what I would do:
Shoot their front tires they wont be able to steer and will have to slow down then cast hot potato on the van so the have to get out then it's just kill the security team  with 4 shots (assuming its a four man team). Then you can do whatever you want with the man in the van because he will think he is burning alive.

UmaroVI

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« Reply #53 on: <03-16-12/1551:39> »
There are lots of ways to stop spirits from casually solving this problem, such as warding the vehicle.

In other news, DBZ fans in Crash_00's universe were pleased to discover that they could destroy the entire planet by sitting around alternating Called Shot (+4 DV) and Take Aim actions 2250 times, spending edge for a longshot test, and then punching the planet for over 9000 damage.

Xzylvador

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« Reply #54 on: <03-16-12/1624:56> »
That's kind of uncalled for UmaroVI... but damned it did make me laugh enough to spill the coke and bunch of pizza crackers in my mouth.

CanRay

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« Reply #55 on: <03-16-12/1734:21> »
In other news, DBZ fans in Crash_00's universe were pleased to discover that they could destroy the entire planet by sitting around alternating Called Shot (+4 DV) and Take Aim actions 2250 times, spending edge for a longshot test, and then punching the planet for over 9000 damage.
Actually, I redid the calculations, and it's only 1006.

...

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Pyromaster13

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« Reply #56 on: <03-16-12/1834:37> »
It was said earlier that the one thing a mage can't do is shoot people behind walls, but as a longshot I was wondering. If a mage got both cybereyes with vision magnification (allowing long distance sight) and an ultrasound system set to passive (allowing visual sight and mental interpretation of ultrasound waves, both cyberware, paid with essence). Is it legal to have someone to broadcast an ultrasound pulse from a distance (say a drone or a street sam) that you then zoom in on with your cybereyes, and can see with your ultrasound sensor, and target them through walls? Or is it not legal since the ultrasound waves were broadcast through something that you didn't come from you as the source, but then it makes me wonder about the technicalities of targeting through light from a street lamp.

UmaroVI

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« Reply #57 on: <03-16-12/1956:35> »
That gets into funny questions about "what things are types of sight." There aren't really clear answers. If your GM will let you do things like that, the radar that you can install into yourself is very pro as well.

Crash_00

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« Reply #58 on: <03-16-12/2233:17> »
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Yep, perfectly valid. If your intention was to waste 4 Simple actions for a +1. Only the last Take Aim counts, the rest is lost.
Take Aim can not be interrupted for any other action, not even Free actions (eg. Call Shot). SR4A 148
So no, you can't do that. The only possible sequence is Call Shot, followed with Take Aim a number of times, then shoot.
Called shots on page 161,  A character can aim (see Take Aim) then call a shot at the time of the attack.
It's perfectly valid to call a shot, take aim as much as you want, then call shot again.

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In other news, DBZ fans in Crash_00's universe were pleased to discover that they could destroy the entire planet by sitting around alternating Called Shot (+4 DV) and Take Aim actions 2250 times, spending edge for a longshot test, and then punching the planet for over 9000 damage.
They'd do +4DV. Never once did I imply they stacked at all. Negating armor and increasing damage overlap, but a +4 DV will just replace a different +4DV.

Lethe

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« Reply #59 on: <03-17-12/1441:59> »
Quote from: SR4A
A character can aim and then call a shot at the time of the attack. Calling the shot is a Free Action.
You can actually call a shot only at the time of the attack, meaning same IP. Also since its using up a free action, you can't use any other free action with it, i.e. adept centering.