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[Hero Lab] Runner's Companion has been added to the Shadowrun files for Hero Lab

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PeterSmith

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« Reply #45 on: <06-25-12/2216:37> »
Power corrupts.
Absolute power is kinda neat.

"Peter Smith has the deadest of deadpans and a very sly smile, making talking to him a fun game of keeping up and slinging the next subtle zinger." - Jason M. Hardy, 3 August 2015

Accipiter

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« Reply #46 on: <06-25-12/2328:39> »
Thanks for posting that, Peter.

Don't know why I didn't go there in the first place.  O.o

Mathias

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« Reply #47 on: <06-25-12/2329:31> »
Don't worry - I'm not going to ignore bug reports just because they're posted here, and not on our own forums.  I do find that I prefer bug reports on our own forums - there, I can keep all the bug reports in a single thread, separated from the discussions, so that I don't miss any bugs because they're several paragraphs down in a large post, among many large posts, and because we get more bug reports there than here, keeping all the bug reports in one place reduces the number of duplicates - users can read what's already been posted and see that someone else beat them to a report, so they don't need to report it themselves.

Accipiter

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« Reply #48 on: <06-25-12/2331:39> »
I tossed 'em up there, too...just in case!

Thanks again. :)

Kontact

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« Reply #49 on: <07-01-12/1438:58> »
The 2.16 release of the Hero Lab files for Shadowrun is now available from the automatic updates mechanism within Hero Lab.

This update adds the Priority System and Karma System alternate character creation methods from Runner's Companion, along with some bug fixes.

I wanted to give everyone who's using the Karma System with Hero Lab a heads up.  We're using different costs for attribute increases and for the total karma than are listed in Runner's Companion, based on the following email exchange we had with Jason Hardy:

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1) The cost of increasing an attribute with karma increased from "new rating * 3" to "new rating * 5" with the publication of the 20th anniversary edition. Does this also change the cost of an attribute when buying it in the karma system method from runner's companion? If so, should the default karma build points for the karma system go up slightly, since the attributes have increased in price?

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JMH: Yes, the cost of attributes in the KarmaGen system should change from 3 times rating to 5 times rating. Here's how I do the math--going from 3 to 5 is an increase of 66.67 percent. You can spend up to half your 750 karma in KarmaGen on attributes (with the addition of the build points for metatype, but I don't think that affects this), meaning you can spend 375 on attributes. If we increase that by 66.67 percent, we get 625. We add that to the other half of the karma and we get 1,000 karma to start with. But we also should tweak the amount of karma you can spend on attributes. Instead of only being able to spend half on attributes, you should be able to spend 62.5 percent of your karma (plus the metatype adjustment) on attributes. Make sense?

This issue has been addressed by the original author several times.
But damn, interpretation hurts my brain.  1000 karma to start is OP as hell.

625 on stats, even including magic, is insane.
You could build a mage with 6 magic and 6 in both drain stats, and 3 or higher in every other stat, including edge with that many karma points.
Compared to BP, that's just too much.
« Last Edit: <07-01-12/1454:03> by Kontact »

_Pax_

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« Reply #50 on: <07-01-12/1543:18> »
625 on stats, even including magic, is insane.
625 Karma at *5, will allow you about the same as the old 375 at New*3.

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You could build a mage with 6 magic and 6 in both drain stats, and 3 or higher in every other stat, including edge with that many karma points.
  Except you can't have two 6's.

  And with the old Karmagen, you could already have a 6 Magic, 6 Will, 5 Logic, all-else-3 Human Magician:

Magic 6: 60;
Will 6: 60;
Logic 5: 42;
Edge 3: 9 (humans start with 2 for free);
Others 3: 15 each, times 6 stats, is 90;

90+9+42+60+60 = 361.

Leaving 14 points to spare (so, two of those 3's could be pushed to 4's)

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Compared to BP, that's just too much.
KarmaGen doesn't compare to BP.  Nor should it ever.

Kontact

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« Reply #51 on: <07-02-12/2122:02> »
625 on stats, even including magic, is insane.
625 Karma at *5, will allow you about the same as the old 375 at New*3.
I understand how math works.  Thank you.

Thing is, you were never meant to get 375 at New*3.
There was (unofficial because lol Runners Companion) errata to this end posted ages ago by the original author.
Math is not at issue.  Balance is at issue.

And that issue was already addressed by the person who was in charge of designing it.

  Except you can't have two 6's.

Sure you can.  40 karma for exceptional attribute and you've only got 320 karma left for skills.  Heavens me.
It's hardly the issue that you're limited to one attribute at natural max. The issue is that HOLY CRAP YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE HIGHER ATTRIBUTES AND SKILLS AND EVERYTHING ELSE AT 1000 KARMA THAN AT 400 BP

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Compared to BP, that's just too much.
KarmaGen doesn't compare to BP.  Nor should it ever.

What are you talking about? 
Not only does it compare, it compares objectively.

If you would like to try this out, please design a playable character with BP who, when converted to karma uses more than 1000 karma to equal that same bp value.

I managed to make a Fomori ghoul adept that actually hit 1062 karma for the equivalent of 400bp.  Not playable, or reasonable, but it actually broke 1000.
« Last Edit: <07-02-12/2326:40> by Kontact »

_Pax_

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« Reply #52 on: <07-02-12/2355:40> »
Thing is, you were never meant to get 375 at New*3.
  The book - even updated - disagrees with you.

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There was (unofficial because lol Runners Companion) errata to this end posted ages ago by the original author.
  "Unofficial" means it's basically "one guys houserules".

Kontact

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« Reply #53 on: <07-04-12/1642:13> »
RAW is just that same guys houserules that have made it to print.
But whatever.  I'm not going to bring up Ancient History here.

It/he can't change the fact that compensating for the 5* attribute change by increasing the karma amount and % is just breaking a broken thing further.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #54 on: <07-04-12/1732:09> »
I respectfully disagree. Increasing to 1000 and houseruling in the free knowledge pool BP gets along with making Magic, Edge and Resonance not count for the attribute limit are all required to make karma generation usable in my opinion.
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

_Pax_

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« Reply #55 on: <07-04-12/1827:08> »
RAW is just that same guys houserules that have made it to print.
  Go write your own system, then.

Ancient History

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« Reply #56 on: <07-16-12/1920:51> »
Math is not at issue.  Balance is at issue.
Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but both are issues that the game designer needs to address.

I believe I'd said this before, but for anyone who missed it, here's the dilly-o. When Runner's Companion was written it did not receive all of the developer attention and playtesting it needed (this was before Jason was line developer, for anyone keeping count), and it was also in development (like the original PACKS) in the period when SR4A was in-the-works but not-out-yet. So many of the rules - and I take a large share of the blame - are not as polished as they should be, some are fundamentally flawed (*cough* Infected) and others have significant errors, both mathematical and balance-wise.

KarmaGen is okay, but the original point totals were intended for Attributes x 5, but the change in attribute cost got lost in the muddle. There were some deliberate design limitations in the initial draft which were nice in my head but didn't work out balance-wise on the table (like no metatype cost) or proved very unpopular (lumping Magic in with the other attributes, eliminating free skill points). These design limitations were made to inspire the creation of more detailed characters; the extra level of point-allocation was to make up for any loss of raw power (mainly from higher attributes), and partially offset by a much larger number of low-level skills available. But, I fucked up the attribute point cost, and the lack of metatype cost was a mechanical error on my part that disadvantaged human characters. Some time before I parted ways with Shadowrun I sent the German crew my errata for RC, which they incorporated into their book. That errata was never incorporated into the English edition while I was with SR, but for comparison, here it is minus the chargen example:

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p.41 Karma Character Generation Table
The Karma Cost for Metatype (shapeshifter type, etc.) should be “As BP*.”
The Karma Cost for improving an attribute by 1 should be “New rating x 5.”

p.42 Step 1: Choose Your Metatype or Other Character Race Option
The first paragraph should read:
“First you must choose metatype or other alternative character concept (i.e. shapeshifter, AI, sasquatch, etc.); there Karma cost for metatype or race is equal to the BP cost for that metatype or option (i.e. if a race costs 10 BP, in Karmagen it costs 10 Karma); the BP cost should be noted as it is important for Step 3. The Metatype Attribute Table (see p. 70 and p.73, SR4) or the relevant table in the section describing the new character races in this book provide your character’s starting and maximum attribute ratings.”

p.42 Step 5: Convert Your Karma to Nuyen
The second line should read:
“A maximum of 100 Karma may be converted to nuyen in this fashion, or 120 if the character has the Born Rich quality (p.96).”

p.43 Focus Bonding Table
The Karma Cost for weapon foci should be “3 x Force.”

So as far as that goes, mea culpa. Lesson learned about the need for playtesting, listening to other people, and checking your math. Sorry for any problems.

Past that, I have no idea what has been done with KarmaGen or why.

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