[JustADude]

I'm not talking conscience, I'm talking 'worth a fight'. I'm going with a pixie, but I'd say this works for a wider group. Why get into a fight with someone capable of posing a risk to you when you can just snatch the commlink? You don't need to employ muscle, or lure them away from civilization. Hells, if they're really good, the user might not notice (I doubt AR Glasses users are always wearing them, the broadcasting commlink is the more important thing)

If the Pixie is too dangerous to attack directly, why even risk snatching their commlink, then? Just go abduct and murder some helpless schmuck of a Wageslave that isn't a member of a species most people thing are all mages.

*nods* But IIRC, that's forging a SIN, right? I don't think there's anything about how long legitimate alterations take, but I'd imagine they'd be pretty simple. Essentially the Doctor forwarding their records to the SIN, and possibly approval at the record's office, to make sure it's a legit doctor doing it. What there would take weeks? Especially if this was done with prior knowledge. And remember, once it's done, the infomation on the SIN is confidential, and a SINless inquirer isn't going to get any of it...

Except forging a SIN is exactly what you're doing here; you're creating a fake digital paper-trail that points towards a new identity. Remember, this isn't "legitimate" work it's a screw-job of the highest order. I already accounted for the fact that it's easier to adjust existing documents than create them from scratch by cutting the Threshold of the roll in half.

Hmm... Again, opinion, but that sounds like something that someone who grew up with those things would do. Who might need to use those things in that form could do. Someone who was given a commlink and SIN as an adult, who wasn't too sure how they worked, and didn't use them much if avoidable. Especially if they were under stress when having to try and recall it.

Not opinion. Experience. Cops see someone, especially a massively Charismatic person like a Pixie, freaking out about how they've had their stuff stolen, their first thought is to get the agitated person calmed down and keep them from making a scene, which usually involves at least going through the motions of taking the report. Even assuming the officer doesn't believe the massively Charismatic Pixie, running biometrics for the bare-bones "formality" of a report, which would be required to see if the Pixie is a corporate "pet" or is a wanted criminal, will turn up their identity since, again, the thief won't have had the time needed to alter the identity info.

Alright try this scenario.  As a pixie, you're in Seattle as a pet under some Frog's ID.  That guy get's kacked and now you don't have an umbrella SIN to carry you.  Now you're the equivalent of a stray dog.

This, right here, is a much more likely scenario.

[CitizenJoe]

I didn't want to throw the pixie pet scenario out there because I suggested it to someone like a week or two ago.  They were doing a pixie detective... in combat boots I think... or maybe that was a different one.  But yes, the stranded pet is a very believable story.  And you still sort of have a SIN in so much as you've got a serial number associated with you, probably a subcutaneous RFID tag too.

If you're looking to be SINless yourself, but have fake SINs for permits and such, then the fake sins are for your dead master and you've just got to keep anyone from finding out he's dead.

[Moral Wiz]

If the Pixie is too dangerous to attack directly, why even risk snatching their commlink, then? Just go abduct and murder some helpless schmuck of a Wageslave that isn't a member of a species most people thing are all mages.

For the same reason you said before. If you want to run this procedure to give another Pixie a fake ID, (and get good Nuyen for it ) you need one to target. That gives you limited options, but it's still doable; look for someone with a comparatively new SIN, and thus has less experience dealing with human civili8zation. That shouldn't be too hard, right? Basic research into a limited subset of SINs.

Except forging a SIN is exactly what you're doing here; you're creating a fake digital paper-trail that points towards a new identity. Remember, this isn't "legitimate" work it's a screw-job of the highest order. I already accounted for the fact that it's easier to adjust existing documents than create them from scratch by cutting the Threshold of the roll in half.

But this isn't even that. That requires an edit of an existing SIN, changing stuff, which this doesn't. It requires a legally submitted addenda, which isn't covered by the forging rules. These are legal procedure. They're not foolproof, but it's still a legal way to change a SIN's bottom line. Why would a simple legal document take that long to file?

Not opinion. Experience. Cops see someone, especially a massively Charismatic person like a Pixie, freaking out about how they've had their stuff stolen, their first thought is to get the agitated person calmed down and keep them from making a scene, which usually involves at least going through the motions of taking the report. Even assuming the officer doesn't believe the massively Charismatic Pixie, running biometrics for the bare-bones "formality" of a report, which would be required to see if the Pixie is a corporate "pet" or is a wanted criminal, will turn up their identity since, again, the thief won't have had the time needed to alter the identity info.

I've argued the time thing above, but yeah, I can see most of this. (though emphasis ill becomes you ) I'd still say that comparing contemporary Cops to KE is doing the Knights too much justice, and the Cops a disservice, but yeah.... circs are going to matter a lot, it'd be much easier for  KE to sideline her if the office was empty rather than if the reception was full at the time, there's the personality of the individual officers... too many variables, in short. I'll grant you that they'll run analysis, it's certainly possible, and best to focus this argument down on the time issue.

Alright try this scenario.  As a pixie, you're in Seattle as a pet under some Frog's ID.  That guy get's kacked and now you don't have an umbrella SIN to carry you.  Now you're the equivalent of a stray dog.

Why would a pixie be a pet to a Frog? France issues them SINs, and they've got a pretty good rep there.

*shrugs* Side issue though, and yeah, that works to get a pixie to Seattle without a SIN, but that's not what I'm aiming at. I'm after a lost SIN specifically, though thinking about it, erased ID might also work. I'd need to come up with a reason for it, but that's probably the best alt from my point of view.

[CitizenJoe]

Frog = slang for Frenchman.

It is very hard to get rid of a SIN once you have one.  Stipulating that some punk kid can steal it from you is a very bad precedent.  It either means that your pixie is an utter moron or the entire infrastructure of SINs is compromised.  Now, a FAKE SIN could be stolen like that since you can't just go to the cops. 

You seem really set on the SIN being stolen and are ignoring the entire plausibility of the situation.  At that point, you just say it was stolen and don't think about it any more.  Done. 

If you want a plausible reason for an educated pixie to be SINless in Seattle, that is a different matter.  Being a pet works and it works pretty damn well if you're from Quebec where they hunt paranormals.  And if you were registered under a CATco employee, when it went belly up, so did your meal ticket and registration.  Perhaps your master was a secretary for Lucien Cross and died in that crash.  No body to be identified.  The corp gets bought up so nobody asks about her whereabouts.  Just need to explain about 8 years of keeping a dead woman alive in the eyes of the SIN registry.  You could even use those 8 years to better yourself, stealing from her coffers to pay for your education.  Or, you know, you could just get mugged by a kid fresh off the boat and not realize you can just report it to the police... your call

[Moral Wiz]

I know Frog=French. Just saying, they know Pixies, and are the nation known to grant them SINs. Hell, they granted them self-rule. Just a little odd to have a Frog in that position.

You seem really set on the SIN being stolen and are ignoring the entire plausibility of the situation.  At that point, you just say it was stolen and don't think about it any more.  Done. 

Kinda harsh. Yeah, that's the outcome I'm interested in, but I've been trying to argue logically as to how this might work, as opposed to just ignoring anything you guys say.. I'd envisioned the character in this way, as a citizen fallen rather than a pet escaped, which is a pretty different situation.

It is very hard to get rid of a SIN once you have one.  Stipulating that some punk kid can steal it from you is a very bad precedent.  It either means that your pixie is an utter moron or the entire infrastructure of SINs is compromised.  Now, a FAKE SIN could be stolen like that since you can't just go to the cops. 

A government system in Shadowrun not working how it should? Oh, the horror.

Eh, not really. Even if what I'm saying is true, it usually would get thwarted by the family, at least in most situations, or Corp middle management. Family Groups that don't have long term Matrix access are the flaw in the system, but those groups tend to be SINless, so what should the system care? And yeah, someone without much experiance in public living, going from small scale clan life to cities and sprawls? She had stuff to learn.

If you want a plausible reason for an educated pixie to be SINless in Seattle, that is a different matter.  Being a pet works and it works pretty damn well if you're from Quebec where they hunt paranormals.  And if you were registered under a CATco employee, when it went belly up, so did your meal ticket and registration.  Perhaps your master was a secretary for Lucien Cross and died in that crash.  No body to be identified.  The corp gets bought up so nobody asks about her whereabouts.  Just need to explain about 8 years of keeping a dead woman alive in the eyes of the SIN registry.  You could even use those 8 years to better yourself, stealing from her coffers to pay for your education.  Or, you know, you could just get mugged by a kid fresh off the boat and not realize you can just report it to the police... your call

Erm.... I do appreciate the advice, but... well, the thing is, that simply results in a pretty much completely different character than the one I'd intended. I was after a character who'd studied Hermetic magic in Prague, become a member of the Benandanti, happy to get to see more of the world, who then got essentially marooned in Seattle, and had to take to dark paths because of it.  As opposed to a liberated pet, who has everything to live for now. There's nothing inherantly wrong with that concept, but... well, as a thought, would it be fair to describe that character concept as somewhat 'Moe'?

Honestly? The idea that she doesn't believe she can talk with the police is probably more plausible than at first it seems . With lesser knowledge of how these things work, it's not implausible that she'll believe that getting caught without a SIN in public gets her a criminal SIN. (In places like Quebec, it probably would)

Also, please tell me there's a Trid or at least a chapter in some sourcebook called 'SINless in Seattle'

[JustADude]

I understand you want to play a certain type of character but, unfortunately, sometimes you have to face the fact that your concept just doesn't jive with the way the world is written and the character just isn't plausible. When you have to argue that the entire infrastructure that modern identity verification is based on can be compromised irrecoverably in the matter of a few hours to try and justify your point, it's time to hang it up.

It takes a lot of time and money to burn a legitimate SIN even when you want it gone, and it's hard to keep it from coming to bite you in the ass even then. If it were that easy to get rid of a SIN, criminals wouldn't keep a Criminal SIN for more than a few hours after getting out of jail.

[Reaver]

Well there are a couple of issues as I see it.

1:   Is there a country out there that issues SINs to your meta type? Remember, just cause its a meta type doesn't mean it is actually acknowledged by a country! Shapechangers CAN NOT be UCAS citizens cause the UCAS says they are animals and ONLY animals! I don't know of any country (off hand) that recognizes pixies as 'people'

2: stealing a commlink really doesn't help a thief any more then that he has a used commlink to pawn. All the info is still encoded/incrypted so he can't even pull your cash out of your bank account without hacking it. Plus, the victim goes off crying to LS/KE about the thieft and the cops can track that commlink back to the thieves the moment they turn it on. You can use it to make a purchase (after you hacked it for the passcodes) while in hidden mode remember? (cause, you know, it's HIDDEN)
  Also, the victim's SIN isn't just stored in one place.... It's EVERYWHERE that person has used their ID. When they rented their home. Purchased their car, applied for a driver's liecence, voted in the election, etc... That's one of the chief reasons faking a SIN takes to long, ESP for a 'good' SIN. It takes time to plant all that background history (right down to the size of the pants you bought last week at the GAP).
  Sure, someone could steal a SIN, hack a few little details and away they go... To maybe the stuffer shack... It isn't going to stand up to a good scanner. (basically you got a rating 1 faked SIN) the first time you need to prove yourself to someone of authority (the bank for large purchases, the cops, an embassy, etc) you are matching your in the flesh samples (anything/everything from simple biometrics to DNA to thermal patterns, etc) to what is on file! (you get to roll your 1 dice VS the scanners rating 3 [patrol car] to rating 9 [military] dice... Aka you're busted!)
  Conversely, the victim is going to have a much easier time of getting their info locked/changed/flagged the faster the report it to the authorities. After all they just "goto the police" submit to a scan VS on file SIN info, and bang, they get it "sorted out" (yea, not exactly that easy, but a hella lot easier then you think)

   Hacking a commlink and stealing the info is good for small, short term things like ringing in a meal at a stuffer shack... Or maybe paying of a low lifestyle for a month or two... But eventually it WILL catch up to the thief. Either the real owner will notice the missing funds and change his passwords, or the bank will notice the inconsistencies and flag the account (why is Johnny paying the utilities on a pad in Huston when his address is in Seattle??)


Want to try a real life experiment? Try using a CC in a different country when on vacation without telling the CC company!!! It will get declined do fast it will make your head spin! (heck, I even told them where and when i was going at it still got declined! Had to call them 3 seperate times while on vacation to get it to work for the 3 purchases I made on it! Not a happy camper with TD visa)

[Angelone]

All this gave me an idea about how to frame someone or get them put away for a long while without killing them. Snatch them, keep them off the street for a bit, while you have them locked up put some warrants out for their arrest in different places, and release them without their commlink so they have to go get a new one. They pop up as a wanted criminal in a bunch of areas, and promptly get locked down for Ghost knows how long.

Shoot you could probably set it all up before hand and mug them and take their stuff when you are ready.

[Reaver]

Note on the Pixie:

Only France issues regular (citizenship) SINs to pixies.
Germany will issue a criminal SIN...
(did not know this at time of my posting)

So that leaves you in an interesting position in Seattle with a pixie character with "no SIN".... You are viewed not as a person, but as a non-native (and possibly harmful!!) animal. You HAVE no rights! You can not goto KE/LS to report a missing SIN, can not go into shops/stores/restaurants, can not rent a house/apartment/hotelroom.

In fact, you are worse then SINless!! SINless are still protected by basic human rights.... But under UCAS law, you are not (meta)human!

OFF TO THE ANIMAL SHELTER FOR YOU!!! And if no one "claims" you in 6 weeks.... The incinerator.

[CitizenJoe]

Pixie comes to Seattle, pre-Crash, using valid French SIN.  Crash rolls around and credstick can't be verified.  Without funds to return to France and the ability to recertify her ID, she's stuck.  Eventually, too much time passes and the amnesty SIN registration period passes.  Poof, her SIN is gone and she's stuck in Seattle area.  Not stolen, just lost in the crash with no way of rebuilding it.   She can't even go to the police now because she's not recognized as a person let alone a citizen.  At that point, you've got about 8 years to stew about your situation and struggle to survive.  When Brackhaven becomes governor, things get worse for non-humans.  K-E taking over the Seattle contract after the Tempo problem also aggravates the situation since they have a bit of a reputation of being harsh against magic users (FAB-3 and the whole Chicago fiasco).

[Moral Wiz]

I understand you want to play a certain type of character but, unfortunately, sometimes you have to face the fact that your concept just doesn't jive with the way the world is written and the character just isn't plausible. When you have to argue that the entire infrastructure that modern identity verification is based on can be compromised irrecoverably in the matter of a few hours to try and justify your point, it's time to hang it up.

It takes a lot of time and money to burn a legitimate SIN even when you want it gone, and it's hard to keep it from coming to bite you in the ass even then. If it were that easy to get rid of a SIN, criminals wouldn't keep a Criminal SIN for more than a few hours after getting out of jail.

I get what your saying, I simply disagree. Yeah, this is a hole in the system, but it's not that big, and is going to raise some problems if tried outside of these circumstance. For one thing, this flat out won't work on any kind of mass basis, you need someone else to be living and using the SIN, (and a doctor who is legit but won't talk) as opposed to just messing around with the documentation. If the authorities can't contact the current holder of the SIN, but find a link between it and someone else, they'll join the dots.(though with genetweaking, I'd have said people have tried to frame others before by going this route   It also doesn't work for anyone with infrastructure enough to get KE to investigate seriously, which would hold true for most corp or local citizens. Even most foreigners with family will eventually launch an inquiry with the authorities, to find out what happened to their family member.

(That's an interesting side note. Who has access to a SINs info? Police authorities, CorpSec... are they allowed to share stuff with the public? )

2: stealing a commlink really doesn't help a thief any more then that he has a used commlink to pawn. All the info is still encoded/incrypted so he can't even pull your cash out of your bank account without hacking it. Plus, the victim goes off crying to LS/KE about the thieft and the cops can track that commlink back to the thieves the moment they turn it on. You can use it to make a purchase (after you hacked it for the passcodes) while in hidden mode remember? (cause, you know, it's HIDDEN)
  Also, the victim's SIN isn't just stored in one place.... It's EVERYWHERE that person has used their ID. When they rented their home. Purchased their car, applied for a driver's liecence, voted in the election, etc... That's one of the chief reasons faking a SIN takes to long, ESP for a 'good' SIN. It takes time to plant all that background history (right down to the size of the pants you bought last week at the GAP).
  Sure, someone could steal a SIN, hack a few little details and away they go... To maybe the stuffer shack... It isn't going to stand up to a good scanner. (basically you got a rating 1 faked SIN) the first time you need to prove yourself to someone of authority (the bank for large purchases, the cops, an embassy, etc) you are matching your in the flesh samples (anything/everything from simple biometrics to DNA to thermal patterns, etc) to what is on file! (you get to roll your 1 dice VS the scanners rating 3 [patrol car] to rating 9 [military] dice... Aka you're busted!)
  Conversely, the victim is going to have a much easier time of getting their info locked/changed/flagged the faster the report it to the authorities. After all they just "goto the police" submit to a scan VS on file SIN info, and bang, they get it "sorted out" (yea, not exactly that easy, but a hella lot easier then you think)

Remember, in SR, surgery can change everything about you. DNA, eyes, facial structure... and do it legitimately. Those things are added to the SIN, through legitimate channels. If you have someone who can file those forms as soon as you crack the commlink and share the basic details of the SIN....

In fact, you are worse then SINless!! SINless are still protected by basic human rights.... But under UCAS law, you are not (meta)human!

OFF TO THE ANIMAL SHELTER FOR YOU!!! And if no one "claims" you in 6 weeks.... The incinerator.

I'm not sure if that's something to be overly worried about (can fly) but does show a point. If we're not in agreement about how KE would react to the character in this situation, how is she supposed to know? She doesn't have access to sourcebooks.

Pixie comes to Seattle, pre-Crash, using valid French SIN.  Crash rolls around and credstick can't be verified.  Without funds to return to France and the ability to recertify her ID, she's stuck.  Eventually, too much time passes and the amnesty SIN registration period passes.  Poof, her SIN is gone and she's stuck in Seattle area.  Not stolen, just lost in the crash with no way of rebuilding it.   She can't even go to the police now because she's not recognized as a person let alone a citizen.  At that point, you've got about 8 years to stew about your situation and struggle to survive.  When Brackhaven becomes governor, things get worse for non-humans.  K-E taking over the Seattle contract after the Tempo problem also aggravates the situation since they have a bit of a reputation of being harsh against magic users (FAB-3 and the whole Chicago fiasco).

*nods* That's a viable alt, which gives the same character. I'm personally preferring the first idea, so going to focus on it, but yes, that still works. Thanks!

[Xzylvador]

One of the books (I -THINK- Spygames, but I'm AFB) has an explanation of Fake SIN's and what's on them, depending on their rating.
To have an idea of how easy it is to steal someone's identity by just stealing their commlink, this gives a good reference though.
Like I said, AFB, but it comes down to that a R1 fake SIN means you're in the local database, but that's just about it. The moment anyone checks out of that database he'll notice the identity is just fake, not being in any other system is just impossible for a real SINner.
A high rating SIN means you're in the national database, in the database of several megacorps, have a long history and a hundred friends on the 2072 Facebook equivalent, an open account in 3 shopping malls, the stuffer shack next door and apparently once booked into a hotel in Florida on a holiday 5 years ago.
So just stealing a SIN means you might have a Rating 0.5 fake SIN, because you don't even match the local database: "Yes sir, I know you have a SIN. But you don't look like a 85 year old widow to me." You want to really steal someone's identity: you'll have to edit the records stored in the databases of several megacorps and governments (though this is often outsources to megacorps too) and a thousand of other small places.
That's why it takes so long.
That street doc you bribed might have enough influence to chance the records in the local database, but any real security check will raise a red flag because this information does not match that stored in all those other databases.

[Moral Wiz]

One of the books (I -THINK- Spygames, but I'm AFB) has an explanation of Fake SIN's and what's on them, depending on their rating.
To have an idea of how easy it is to steal someone's identity by just stealing their commlink, this gives a good reference though.
Like I said, AFB, but it comes down to that a R1 fake SIN means you're in the local database, but that's just about it. The moment anyone checks out of that database he'll notice the identity is just fake, not being in any other system is just impossible for a real SINner.
A high rating SIN means you're in the national database, in the database of several megacorps, have a long history and a hundred friends on the 2072 Facebook equivalent.
So just stealing a SIN means you might have a Rating 0.5 fake SIN, because you don't even match the local database: "Yes sir, I know you have a SIN. But you don't look like a 85 year old widow to me." You want to really steal someone's identity: you'll have to edit the records stored in the databases of several megacorps and governments. That's why it takes so long. And that street doc you bribed might have enough influence to chance the records in the local database, but any real security check will raise a red flag because this information does not match that stored in several other databases.

Erm, you're not really addressing the point I brought up about legit modifications to things like looks, DNA signature, ect. All these things can be changed legitimately, and that has to be reflected on the SIN. You don't need a street doc to do that, you just need legit surgery that can file the stuff under the wrong SIN, so the original can't prove who they are any more. It's different to faking a SIN, requires more prepwork and care in execution, but the two aren't quite the same thing.

[JustADude]

Erm, you're not really addressing the point I brought up about legit modifications to things like looks, DNA signature, ect. All these things can be changed legitimately, and that has to be reflected on the SIN. You don't need a street doc to do that, you just need legit surgery that can file the stuff under the wrong SIN, so the original can't prove who they are any more. It's different to faking a SIN, requires more prepwork and care in execution, but the two aren't quite the same thing.

That was addressed way back in the thread, MW. They keep records of the pre-change genetic profile as well, if only so that gene-tweaks (on-the-books ones like you're talking about, at least) can't be used to avoid DNA evidence linking someone to a crime. There's also recovery time, and plastic surgery leaves marks.

Also, Pixies (and other NMSs) are notoriously difficult to work on, medically, for Metahuman-trained doctors. The number of Sapients in Seattle that are capable of doing complex genetic work on them would be countable on a single hand, and they require Delta Clinic level facilities, which are even rarer.

[Xzylvador]

Erm, you're not really addressing the point I brought up about legit modifications to things like looks, DNA signature, ect. All these things can be changed legitimately, and that has to be reflected on the SIN. You don't need a street doc to do that, you just need legit surgery that can file the stuff under the wrong SIN, so the original can't prove who they are any more. It's different to faking a SIN, requires more prepwork and care in execution, but the two aren't quite the same thing.

Legit? Hah! You must've been born in a different century!
That Evo clinic where you got your genes altered and implants installed might have the authorisation to change their own database and a licence to add medical data (without erasing/modifying older info, of course) to that of the UCAS government.
But funny thing is, that facebook profile of yours doesn't mention anything about that month you spent in a clinic... isn't that odd? And of course, the next time you pass an S-K or Ares border or security checkpoint, they might want to do some additional controls and have their own medical team do some 'minor examinations'. All for your own and public safety, of course. "Don't like it? Tough. Maybe next time you'll have your work done at one of our clinics instead, huh?"

You're living in a world where what's legit and what isn't can change every doorstep your cross.