[CassusAevum]

My group is two games in to our first SR4 game.     Some of us have some experience going back through the editions, but it's all a ways in the past and everyone is fuzzy.  We've had some questions come up, so I'm hoping we can find some answers from the wisdom of the boards.

1.  What constitutes "in melee?"  We're playing with maps and minis, and we've been trained by other games that "basing" and "in melee" are interchangeable.  Does that hold true in SR?  If two guys with guns are standing within a meter of each other and pulling the triggers, are they considered "in melee" for purposes of dice pool modifiers, or does someone actually have to be attacking or defending against a melee attack?

2.  What are the limits of the Infiltration skill?  Do you have to have some sort of cover to make the test?  Does something like a chameleon suit make it feasible to walk across the center of an open room and maintain your stealthiness?  Once you've attacked someone (in a melee scenario) do they know where you are automatically?  What about people you didn't attack?  Are you still stealthed to them, do they get another perception check, something else entirely?

3.  How specific to you have to get with commanding spirits?  If you tell a spirit to "Guard me from my enemies" and a fight breaks out, when does that command trigger?  Is it if the summoner is attacked?  Or any time the lead starts flying?  Does the wording matter, or is it the intent?

4.  If a spirit that has been commanded to fight or guard has their summoner go down, what do they do?  Keep fighting until dismissed?  Stand idly about?  Protect the fallen body, but otherwise nothing?

In all the above, to keep the game moving we ruled in favor of the players and went on, but it would be good to get the right answer so we can apply it both ways (players and npcs) going forward.  Any help is greatly appreciated.

[Chrona]

Most of these are upto the GM but heres what I think:

1.  What constitutes "in melee?"  We're playing with maps and minis, and we've been trained by other games that "basing" and "in melee" are interchangeable.  Does that hold true in SR?  If two guys with guns are standing within a meter of each other and pulling the triggers, are they considered "in melee" for purposes of dice pool modifiers, or does someone actually have to be attacking or defending against a melee attack? Melee requires combat using melee attacks, being that near, both with guns, gun would just give point blank bonuses. Melee versus melee = both in melee and Gun versus melee = both in melee, shooter has point blank bonuses.
2.  What are the limits of the Infiltration skill?  Do you have to have some sort of cover to make the test?  Does something like a chameleon suit make it feasible to walk across the center of an open room and maintain your stealthiness?  Once you've attacked someone (in a melee scenario) do they know where you are automatically?  What about people you didn't attack?  Are you still stealthed to them, do they get another perception check, something else entirely? Keep in mind shadows, blind spots and people not being stationary and staring in one direction, it may take a while longer but stealth doesn't allways require cover. Chameleon  Suits can really help with this, they drop the average perception pool to low to SEE you, but theres still sound, smell, etc. If the players described their creeping well and rolled well theres no need to penalize them. Combat is entirely a GMs call, itd certainly make it easier with ever attack.
3&4.  How specific to you have to get with commanding spirits?  If you tell a spirit to "Guard me from my enemies" and a fight breaks out, when does that command trigger?  Is it if the summoner is attacked?  Or any time the lead starts flying?  Does the wording matter, or is it the intent? Spirits are foreign beings but most are intelligent, moreso then drones that do follow commands exactly without a fuzzy logic chip. Temperment is the issue, does the spirit like cooperating? either way the spirit is contract bound to carry out its last order, fighting lasts for a combat encounter, guarding lasts till disrupted/overwritten/ time limit or services run out (check the books for commands that take time, i forget the page sorry)

[Walks Through Walls]

First let me say welcome back. Now for your questions as I understand the rules:

1) I don't play with maps or minis so we usually rule your in melee only if you are physically attacking/under attack. I don't see a reason for two people shooting each other from point blank to get a melee modifier to their rolls.

2) The limits of infiltration is a subject much debated. With a chameleon suit it could be possible to walk across a room without being seen, but there would be bonuses to see you. If there is a group then use teamwork, being obvious would give the person perceiving a bonus, if they are actively looking that would be a bonus, and there are probably others. If you attack you don't become visible like in some games, but I would give the person a bonus to see you. However, this would depend on how much attention the attack drew. A sword chop would be a high bonus as would an unsilenced gun, but throwing a knife from 20 meters would be less of a bonus since it would give you direction, but little else.

3) How specific the command to spirit needs to be depends on the GM, and many run it like the wish spell while others are more lenient. I look at the force of the spirit, how willing they would be to do what is asked. If you ask a watcher to search every corner of a building being they are low intelligence it would look in the corners while a force 4 earth spirit would search the building, but if it is a force 12 spirit then they might feel it is beneath them and resent your commands and just look in the corners.

4) It would depend if it was to fight or guard in my opinion. If it was fight my enemies then they would continue to attack in my opinion. If it was guard me then that usually is using the guard power and I would say the spirit would just continue to do that.

Hope this helps. 

[Crash_00]

Well I'll give my opinions on some of these.

1.) SR wasn't designed for minis use like later D&D editions. Minis work fine with it, but there is no standard "threat range" for being in melee. Basically if no one has starting trying to melee the other one, I wouldn't consider them to be in melee (as it would appear they are both trying to stay out of melee). I would say anyone that has attacked in melee on their last action or been attacked by melee on someones last action and not moved would probably be in melee.

That said, the Interception rule (SR4A pg. 161) states that if a character moves within one meter of an enemy and tries to continue movement without attacking, the enemy gets to spend a free action for a free melee attack. So when enemies get close to each other, it makes it unlikely for them to stay out of melee for long. Once one tries to run away, or move, they are going to get thwapped most likely.

2.) You have to be moving stealthily for infiltration, but there aren't really cover limits by RAW. Rather than limitations, anyone viewing gets bonuses or you get penalties depending on the circumstances. Chameleon suits definitely help keep your stealthiness, but they aren't full invis., so remember they help you remain unseen, they don't prevent you from being seen.

Attacking someone (assuming in melee) is probably going to give them a bonus to know which direction the attack came from, but they'd still have to detect you to find you. Of course, they probably have enough to go on for making a blind attack against you at that point. Everyone around is going to have to find you to attack you, but depending on circumstances they might have enough to go on for blind attacks, or they might just spray the area and blame Joe (the guy you attacked)'s swiss cheese nature on you if they drop you. Varies from enemy to enemy really. It isn't D&D, attacking doesn't cause the chameleon suit spell to break. That said, any action like that is going to spark a new perception test to spot you (most likely with a higher DP since they'll get +3 for actively searching rather than -2 for being distracted).

3.) Depends largely on the force and nature of the spirit. Stupid (low force and/or watcher) spirits probably will go word for word at your instructions simply because they cannot think to understand more. (Don't tell a watcher to search every corner of a building or it will tell you what it found in every corner of the building but it won't look anywhere else in the building). Smarter spirits should be able to do some basic reasoning on their own. There is a distinct difference between protect me and protect me and my buddies, but if hostiles start throwing lead around you and it looks like you're on their to do list, a decent force spirit should be able to reason this is a situation where protect me should apply.

All that said, how you treat your spirits can directly influence how they treat you. Treat them like suicide bombers and slaves, they may hold you directly to your wording despite "knowing better". Treat them well and they might try harder to please you, going out of their way to be of more use.

4.) It largely depends on what you mean by goes down. If you mean unconscious then I think the spirit would stick around and follow it's service (especially if ti's bound). If you mean dead, well then the spirit is free to do whatever it wants, which probably depends on how the mage treated it and how big of a douche the person that axed him is. Someone may be along to correct me later (magic isn't my strong point), so take this with a grain of salt.

[CassusAevum]

Thanks for the quick responses!

[TheNarrator]

I don't see a reason for two people shooting each other from point blank to get a melee modifier to their rolls.

What if they know the Firefight martial art? 

Keep in mind that while the example in that film something of an exaggeration, it really is considered adviable for people with guns to stay out of arm's reach of potential hostiles for exactly that reason: the opponent might grab their gun and shove the barrel away from them before the shooter can shoot them.

The actual "Attacker in Melee Combat" entry in the book notes that it applies if the shooter is in melee combat or "if he is aware of another character trying to block his attack within two meters of him." This is whether the target he's trying to shoot is the same person who's interfering with his shot, or if he's trying to shoot someone far away while a third party tries to ruin his aim. It seems fair to me that, just as trying to block or parry an attempt to stab or punch you is an automatic action, so would be trying to shove aside a gun that someone is trying to point at you.

However, if the target is the same person who's trying to block the shot, then the +2 "Target Point Blank" modifier would also apply and mostly negate the penalty. It says so explicitly in the description of the Target Point Blank modifier in Arsenal.

[JustADude]

What if they know the Firefight martial art?[/url] 

*snip*

However, if the target is the same person who's trying to block the shot, then the +2 "Target Point Blank" modifier would also apply and mostly negate the penalty. It says so explicitly in the description of the Target Point Blank modifier in Arsenal.

Heh, beat me to the link, and question.

However, in all seriousness, someone with enough Martial Arts to compensate would end up with a net +2 on any Point Blank attacks, since the penalty has been neutralized entirely.

[Ki_Ryn]

. With a chameleon suit it could be possible to walk across a room without being seen, but there would be bonuses to see you.

A chameleon suit causes a -4 on Perception checks.

If someone doesn't have a chameleon suit, what Perception do you have to roll in order to see them walking across a room? I would assume that it is a easy test (threshold 1) and the bonus is so high that anyone who is not blind can trade in 4 dice for 1 automatic success - because you don't really roll in order to see people in plain sight right in fron of you under normal circumstances. So there is at least

By the same reasoning, someone hitting you with a sword would be at least a +8 modifier as othewise you would have to have people roll to see an attacker with no cameleon suit if it were raining hard. So even with the -4 for the suit, someone in melee* with you is going to still have a +4 bonus, which means they see you without having to roll (unless there are other factors).


Melee is defined on pg. 156 as "whenever two or more characters engage each other in hand-to-hand combat or armed combat that does not involve ranged weapons..."

[Tsuzua]

1.) What do you want it to be?  There's no formal definition.  Our group does it if there's a dude in your grill trying to melee you. 
 
 2.) There isn't.  You can totally sneak up behind someone in a hallway.  You might give the perceiver the "Object/sound stands out in some way" bonus in some cases.  There is the question if a mundane can sneak by someone with astral perception or not is not covered however.
 
 3.) Since you maintain a constant psychic link to your spirits, it's likely by intent.  Spirits are also fairly intelligent (force 6+ especially) so it isn't going to be dumb about the orders too.  Our group generally does "Guard me from my enemies" style orders kick in when it's clear you're in a fight even if you haven't been shot at directly.  Now you might want specify other conditions in some sort of weird circumstance is coming up (such as a fake firefight or something for a movie) and you don't want to risk misunderstood orders.
 
 4.) I can't find my source on this though I think it was mentioned somewhere.  Our group does it that if the mage is KOed the spirit continues its last order.  However if the mage is killed, the spirit is disrupted/departs.  I believe it says as much somewhere, but I can't it or a related passage.

[TheNarrator]

If someone doesn't have a chameleon suit, what Perception do you have to roll in order to see them walking across a room? I would assume that it is a easy test (threshold 1) and the bonus is so high that anyone who is not blind can trade in 4 dice for 1 automatic success - because you don't really roll in order to see people in plain sight right in fron of you under normal circumstances.

Don't be so sure about that.

What most people don't realize is that most people are totally freaking oblivious. I could try to find and link to studies where people have completely failed to notice a guy in a clown suit going past them on the way to work and the like, but some of my favorite stories about this come from personal experience. I have, on many occassions over the past few years, walked right up to someone, with no attempt at stealth, at a fast walking pace, wearing heavy boots and carrying jangling keys, only to have them jump a foot in the air when I speak because they had no freaking idea I was there. They were just that unaware of their surroundings. This happened to one coworker so much that it started to become a running gag. ("Hi Bob!" "GAH! How do you do that?") I had to get the habit of stopping and stomping my feet for a while before I approached, just so he'd realize I was nearby.

This is only getting worse as more and more people are walking around with earbuds in, listening to their MP3 player, tuning out of reality.

So it's entirely justified for those with no Perception skill to fail to notice something that's blindingly obvious. Most people, quite frankly, just aren't paying attention.

(Especially with that "Distracted" penalty.)

[Blue_Lion]

well if people are distracted or focused on something then yea they might not notice you but the rule say that if is something that most people can do without a problem then you do not need to roll a check for it.

If someo ne is working on something foucused on it then yea a check might be needed but if there atttion is not preoccupied they should not. When i work even when i I am busy you have to pay attion and greet people when they come within 10' of you and it is not that hard to do.

[TheNarrator]

Again, I've seen people who are specifically waiting for me at my desk (having called me while I was away because they needed something) fail to notice me approach, across twenty or thirty feet of open floor, after I got out of an elevator that went "ding!" when it arrived. And again, I wasn't even trying to sneak. Why didn't they notice me? Because most people don't bother to look around or listen to sounds in the background. Human beings have an amazing ability to ignore their surroundings. Those few of us who make a point to pay attention to what's around us are a lot harder to surprise. Whether or not that includes some corpsec guard depends on how well he was trained and how much he bothers to care, and whether he's so numb to his job that he's just going through the motions.

If you don't cross their line of sight and don't make any loud noises, you will be amazed how many people will fail to notice you. That's where use of the Infiltration skill comes in. Knowing how to wait for them to look away, how to move in ways that don't draw the eye when glimpsed in the periphery vision and how to step quietly can all be an advantage. But the best weapon in the stealth expert's arsenal is sheer human obliviousness.

[Hellfire]

I guess that is the difference between seeing and noticing as well as between a "normal" person and a person trained in perception ->

take for example John Doe (your average corp citizen) with INT 3 and no perception skill, he rolls in an average situation 2 dice (3 - 1 for defaulting), meaning he would get in average no hit with a threshold of 2 (see p. 136 SR4A) (this explains not noticing the "obvious" approach by TheNarrator). When he is distracted (for example working at his desk) it gets even worse (-2 dice meaning he would not get to role at all)
Threshold 1 perception tests are only if this is really obvious: running and/or yelling crowd, a normal pedestrian walking is threshold 2.

So, according to the rules as written, to reliably notice (not see, but notice!) someone walking through a room you have to be trained in perception (rank 1 would suffice) and activly looking (for example security guard on post), then as an average human with INT 3 you would arrive at a dicepool of 7 (INT 3 + 1 perception + 3 activly looking) and you'd have a good chance to reach threshold 2 on the perception test. You may actually see something without reaching the threshold, but for your brain to come to the right conclusion that something is "off" you have to reach threshold 2, otherwise it is just "background noise".

If that person crossing the room now was trying to avoid being noticed by wearing a chamealeon suit, even without using the infiltration skill, the guard would only roll 3 dice with a threashold of 2, not very likely to notice anything...

[_Pax_]

Don't forget that "Observe in Detail" gives a +3 bonus to your Perception DP.

So Intuition 3, Perception 2, "Observe in Detail" ... all adds up to an 8 die pool.  Buy two successes, POOF, noticve anyone not being actively stealthy.

Howevr ... wearing the chameleon suit will only help versus visual perception.  If you don't have and use Infiltration?  they can and should get a separate, unpenalised Perception check to hear you rhino-stomping your noisy way across the room.