[Wakshaani]

Tide link!

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/03/tide-theft-tied-to-drug-trade/

I don't know why, but I love the image in my head of hardcore gangstas in street gear ... and then having, like, three things of Tide in each hand, trying to look cool.

[GiraffeShaman]

The value of tide compared to the value of drugs would necessitate some pretty logisticly inconvenient exchanges.

That would depend on the type of buyers and products sold wouldn't it? It seems to make perfect sense for mass sales of weak/cheap heroine/btl chips to economically challenged junkies. It might decrease the chance law enforcement can establish a chain of sale up to the higher ups in the drug organization.

And then it wouldn't make as much sense for large sales of novacoke to rich clients.

[ArkangelWinter]

I don't know why, but I love the image in my head of hardcore gangstas in street gear ... and then having, like, three things of Tide in each hand, trying to look cool.

ROFLMAO +1 to you sir

[Exodus]

I recently paid my runners in vehicles that were all from the same auto manufacturer (to hint at Mr.Js origins). Which they then sold on the grey market to semi-wealthy figures at several different Megacorps for NeoNet, Ares, and Shiawase corpscrip. THEN, they laundered that through a black market contact to buy some guns and combat drugs, which they then sold to some gang members for Nuyen. All together they lost a fair percentage of the market value of the vehicles but they made a name for themselves with a couple gangs and smugglers.

[JustADude]

I recently paid my runners in vehicles that were all from the same auto manufacturer (to hint at Mr.Js origins). Which they then sold on the grey market to semi-wealthy figures at several different Megacorps for NeoNet, Ares, and Shiawase corpscrip. THEN, they laundered that through a black market contact to buy some guns and combat drugs, which they then sold to some gang members for Nuyen. All together they lost a fair percentage of the market value of the vehicles but they made a name for themselves with a couple gangs and smugglers.

Why launder? I mean, it's not like they have "legitimate" bank accounts and identities to be concerned about.

[Exodus]

What's better in the long run? Laundering money through a front business to keep your fake SIN looking really legit with it's lifestyle expenses, income, bank accounts etc. or pocketing the nuyen from fencing the gear straight to your fixer?

One keeps a fake SIN from degrading and helps you make a name with some gangs and upper-middle class corp movers. The other gets you quick cash and doesn't impress the GM.

[JustADude]

What's better in the long run? Laundering money through a front business to keep your fake SIN looking really legit with it's lifestyle expenses, income, bank accounts etc. or pocketing the nuyen from fencing the gear straight to your fixer?

That's why you have a "Security Consulting Service" as your cover, so you have a great excuse for all your gear (just hide everything but the Stick'n'Shock ammo!) and your Running income just gets filed straight in the books under "Live Security Test - Client Confidential". And, heck, you might actually take a few jobs where you really are performing a security analysis for a client for some side cash, just to stay really legit-looking.

To use your own words... what's better in the long run? Laundering money through a front business to keep your fake SIN looking really legit with it's lifestyle expenses, income, bank accounts etc. and losing a good chunk of it on the way, or creating a cover for your fake SIN where you can just rake it in straight off the table?

[lurkeroutthere]

Front businesses need to pass higher scrutiny, and even worse, pay taxes. In my experience if it's one thing thieves hate it's getting their money stolen by the government. I'm not saying my players never use them, just their a non trivial affair. Plus your front company is a static thing that you can be traced through by your enemies.

[Exodus]

To add to what lurker said, in the world of 2070 even the most marginally profitable businesses get gobbled up or run out of business by the megas. The second Ares/Knight Errant notices that your little security front business is making a profit with no listed clients, in the Seattle market that they dominate no less. They'll hire some shadowrunners to raid your files and see that you're a front business. Then they either buy you out or blow you up.

[Reaver]

To add to what lurker said, in the world of 2070 even the most marginally profitable businesses get gobbled up or run out of business by the megas. The second Ares/Knight Errant notices that your little security front business is making a profit with no listed clients, in the Seattle market that they dominate no less. They'll hire some shadowrunners to raid your files and see that you're a front business. Then they either buy you out or blow you up.

A megacorp wouldn't be interested in the revenue of a shadow team. Way too "mom & pop" for them. In fact unless your tax returns say you are making multi-millions, you're pretty safe. And IF you ARE making multi-millions, what the heck are you doing in the shadows getting your ass shot off?? Cash out, life the good life!

[Exodus]

Eh, if your tax returns say you're making a profit you're fair game. Profit is profit to the corps. Think about John D. Rockefeller. If a competing company was making money he bought it or made sure it lost money. If it was losing money he made sure he could take up the market share when it died.

Since a "Security Consultant" front business would be making money regardless of market pressures, it would be bought out or otherwise eliminated.
The only way you could avoid this is to make sure the megacorps who have a monopoly in the field of your chosen front business somehow knew you were more valuable to them as deniable assets (IE: shadowrunners) than as fodder for the unstoppable machine of corporate profit.

Hiding under the wing of a mega is frequently known as "selling out". Some members of the shadow community disapprove of it.

[Critias]

The amount of profit your company makes isn't what matters, the amount of profit Ares thinks you're making them lose is what matters.  As long as they maintain their current clients, and they get to feel like they'll keep on doing so, they don't care about you.  But the instant someone doesn't renew a Knight Errant contract because you're undercutting their prices?  As soon as you make a headline for a daring rescue mission and they see the media giving you free advertising?  Once word hits them from their CI's that you're doing runs against them to make them look bad and gobble up their clients?

Then.

Then is when the shit hits the fan.

[Reaver]

The amount of profit your company makes isn't what matters, the amount of profit Ares thinks you're making them lose is what matters.  As long as they maintain their current clients, and they get to feel like they'll keep on doing so, they don't care about you.  But the instant someone doesn't renew a Knight Errant contract because you're undercutting their prices?  As soon as you make a headline for a daring rescue mission and they see the media giving you free advertising?  Once word hits them from their CI's that you're doing runs against them to make them look bad and gobble up their clients?

Then.

Then is when the shit hits the fan.

True, but that doesn't mean they automatically do anything beyond "trim the fat" of their own operations. Sometimes the best way to maintain a lead is to see what your competators are doing better, and improve yourself.

Lots of factors go (or, SHOULD GO) into calling for a shadowrun. True, bottom line is going to be the biggest factor but it's not the only one. In the example above of hiding runs under the umbrella of "security consultations", let's assume a tidy posting of a profit of $1 million. (note: if as a runner team, you are making this level of cash... Well, retire while you got most of your bodily functions!!)

To a megacorp, $1 million doesn't even pay the weekly salaries to the minimum wage earners... It's small time change. Since all your work (mostly) is illegal and laundered under your front, the megas aren't losing anything. Some corp hacker, sleazing his way through the taxation office might find the info and pass it along up the chain where it gets filtered into the file of the other 1000 companies doing the same work for a statistical analysis on how their pet firm is doing VS the market on a whole.

Keep in mind, PRIVATE companies do not have to declare anything to anyone other then to the taxation office. So there is no public records of how much money you made. Only publically traded companies (registered with the stock markets) have to release that info. If you are a private company, they can't "buy you out" without coming to your door and offering you money.

But let's assume they decide to come after you for that $1 million you made. First thing they will factor is just what percentage of your business they could grab by closing you down. (some customers will not buy at all, some will goto an other competator, etc). Let's say they figure they can get 25% of your business to sign up with them ($250,000 gain). From there, how much extra man hours are they going to need to service the new clients? How much is the advertising to gain those clients going to cost? How much is the operation (legal/illegal) to shut you down going to cost?

If they cost more then the $250,000 they stand to gain, how many years still they see a profit? Usually in most cases it's not worth the time/hassle to go after a "mom and pop" shop. After all what's 0.000001% of your time (as a mega) really worth?

[Zilfer]

^i'd guess it depends on how cheap a johnson can get someone to do the shadowrun against your company and do a decent job to get paid so they can get their next month's rent done. I always pictured a Mega Corp to pretty much monopolize most things, so if you didn't have some serious biz smarts you'd go under, and not just directly but indirectly. Things like Megacorp's dropping their prices below yours, just to have you go under and then jacking them back up. xD *shrugs* just how it thought it would go.

[Reaver]

^i'd guess it depends on how cheap a johnson can get someone to do the shadowrun against your company and do a decent job to get paid so they can get their next month's rent done. I always pictured a Mega Corp to pretty much monopolize most things, so if you didn't have some serious biz smarts you'd go under, and not just directly but indirectly. Things like Megacorp's dropping their prices below yours, just to have you go under and then jacking them back up. xD *shrugs* just how it thought it would go.

And sometimes it does. A LITTLE competition is good for business. A competator is not. There is a subtle distinction between the two. A competator to a megacorp would be another AA or AAA rated business in the same field. But competition from small fry operators is nothing (or the next thing to it). The thing smart Megas (and even companies of today) realize is that competition could also be revenue.

A megacorp is a mega because they have hugely diverse operations spanning dozens of fields. Take Ares for example... Everyone knows Ares makes guns. But they also make consumer electronics, vehicles, drones, food stuffs and a host of other products. Just because "Gimpy Guns" also makes guns doesn't mean Ares isn't making money from them. Gimpy might buy the raw materials from an Ares subsidiary company, or it's technical equipment might be Ares made, etc, etc, etc. crushing the competition for a diverse Megacorp could hurt the bottom line in an other field.

And lastly. There is the golden tennat is business: "to make a good at the best quality possible, while paying the least possible, and collecting the most possible." basically this means build a quality item for as low as you can (wages, materials, etc) while selling for as much as the market can bare. If you crush all the other businesses around you, there are no jobs for consumers to work at other then your own company. If consumers have no earnings, they can't "consume" (ie: buy your shit).  So now you are left with only selling to your own work force. Since you (presumably) pay a "low" wage, your own workers may not be able to afford your own products at the rate you require to maintain profitability. If you can't maintain profitability, you lose $$$ or you "consolidate" (down size, lay off workers). But cause there are no other jobs.... You keep losing money, to keep consolidating, to keep losing money.... Until you fold outright, or jobs for the unemployed come along.


Ideally, a megacorp would LOVE to have a competator in field they have a small market share (to offset the bottom line as little as possible, and in an area with a low profit to production cost) that pays a wage that allows the competator's employees to buy the Mega's goods in an other area (ESP is a high profit to production market).

...
And I think that's enough economics/business talk for today