[TheNarrator]

Additionally, the game system already has some means in place to discourage min-maxing. Not being able to take more than one or two skills above 4 and a heavy BP penalty for trying to max out an attribute, for starters.

All reducing Build Points will do is force players to cut back on secondary skills and attributes and focus everything on only being good at one thing. They won't be able to afford not to min/max.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if you're running a game with people you know (as opposed to the SR Missions games run at conventions), you can have input into character creation. You can talk with the players about what sort of character they want to play and encourage characters of the sort that you want to see. If they have an attribute that you think is too low because they wanted to put all their points into dishing out destruction, remind them that they'll have to play the character as stupid/oblivious/slow/wimpy/etc. to reflect this. If they've skipped on skills that their background should have but which aren't combat-oriented, point it out. If they're overspecializing, point out how crippling that can be and the value of being versatile.

Also, keep in mind that the characters that some of the people on these forums make are not exactly indicative of Shadowrun PCs as a whole. Most players won't have the intimate knowledge of the rules and experience at manipulating them that someone who makes a hobby of character optimization will.

Additionally, consider offering some points of free Contacts based on Charisma, similar to how Int + Logic gives free Knowledge skills. It'll encourage characters that otherwise might try to make Charisma a dump stat to put a few points into it. And the points not spent on Contacts will go towards that versatility thing. (But then, I honestly think that Contacts cost too much considering how situationally dependent their usefulness is. You may feel differently.)

[JustADude]

Umaro's Archetypes are, in my opinion, probably a bit too optimized. For a group of new players and GM, I wouldn't recommend them. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot you can learn from those builds, but a lot of GM's don't want the beginning players to be better than NPC veterans/'elites', and they probably are.

Except that the Archetypes aren't really for Home Games... they're for a "Sanctioned" Missions table, where personal feelings take a back-seat to raw mechanics because GM Fiat is put on a heavy leash.

[Ratboy]

RE: Concealment

Absolutely scrupulously enforce the difference between concealment and invisability. Concealment makes you more difficult to see if a perception test would be called for, but it doesn't do jack for you if there's no reason why a perception test would be needed. While it is still overpowered this distinction keeps the game from being all concealment power all the time.

In practical terms, you're saying that a Concealed target is perfectly visible, but actually noticing it or getting detailed information about it would be at a penalty??   If I want to say, "I'm looking for the summoner of that spirit with Concealment 6," I get a +3 for "Perceiver is actively looking/listening for it" and -6 for the Concealment, for a net -3 to determine whether I can notice the summoner standing there?

Or is it used only if the summoner is actively trying to hide behind cover, in a crowd, etc.?

[Ratboy]

Additionally, the game system already has some means in place to discourage min-maxing. Not being able to take more than one or two skills above 4 and a heavy BP penalty for trying to max out an attribute, for starters.

Agreed.  I was wondering if even more restriction would be helpful, to broaden characters.

All reducing Build Points will do is force players to cut back on secondary skills and attributes and focus everything on only being good at one thing. They won't be able to afford not to min/max.

Agreed that it would do that if lower initial ceilings weren't also used.  But doing so might help to create a faster initial climb in character development, without the "have to go on several runs before I get enough karma to improve my main specialty" problem. 

I imagine this has been tossed around for ages and repeatedly, and is probably an old discussion.  It's just that I'm new to the system and find it odd that the characters start relatively "elite" and then build slowly.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if you're running a game with people you know (as opposed to the SR Missions games run at conventions), you can have input into character creation.

Yeah...I think my players got burned by an earlier campaign where their non-optimized characters didn't stand a chance or were overshadowed by the specialized, and they're reacting by specializing.

If they've skipped on skills that their background should have but which aren't combat-oriented, point it out. If they're overspecializing, point out how crippling that can be and the value of being versatile.

Since pointing it out seems to fall on deaf ears, it might have to be a painful lesson--but that's their choice.  Thanks for the suggestion/reminder.

I don't want to railroad or just target their weaknesses (skimped skills, etc.), but it might be helpful in small doses.

Additionally, consider offering some points of free Contacts based on Charisma, similar to how Int + Logic gives free Knowledge skills. It'll encourage characters that otherwise might try to make Charisma a dump stat to put a few points into it. And the points not spent on Contacts will go towards that versatility thing. (But then, I honestly think that Contacts cost too much considering how situationally dependent their usefulness is. You may feel differently.)

Thanks for the suggestion.  Unfortunately, I already did that....and that freed up more BP to put into a specialization in Combat Spellcasting, for another bonus, rather than broadening the character in other ways! 

[JustADude]

Thanks for the suggestion.  Unfortunately, I already did that....and that freed up more BP to put into a specialization in Combat Spellcasting, for another bonus, rather than broadening the character in other ways! 

Well, your last hope is to go with the Karmagen system.

BP-builds encourage optimizing, because it's much better to buy up things really high with BP than buy them kinda high with BP and top it off with Karma. Karmagen fixes the issue since it costs more for that Troll to get that 1 last point of Body than bringing an entire new skill up to 4.

[lurkeroutthere]

RE: Concealment

Absolutely scrupulously enforce the difference between concealment and invisability. Concealment makes you more difficult to see if a perception test would be called for, but it doesn't do jack for you if there's no reason why a perception test would be needed. While it is still overpowered this distinction keeps the game from being all concealment power all the time.

In practical terms, you're saying that a Concealed target is perfectly visible, but actually noticing it or getting detailed information about it would be at a penalty??   If I want to say, "I'm looking for the summoner of that spirit with Concealment 6," I get a +3 for "Perceiver is actively looking/listening for it" and -6 for the Concealment, for a net -3 to determine whether I can notice the summoner standing there?

Or is it used only if the summoner is actively trying to hide behind cover, in a crowd, etc.?

Basically in practical terms if the summoner is just standing there in the open under reasonable lighting conditions their seen, no test required. Now as GM you have to make the call on when the conditions come up enough where perception tests are actually called for but yes in that instance the modifiers work much like you've said. Basically if the target can be reasonably seen with no special effort concealment doesn't apply, if they can't be readily seen without some level of practice or skill concealment does apply.

Now before I say this next bit I will point out that this my quasi houserule/fluff from previous editions. In my own games I limit concealment power to a setting appropriate for the creature or spirit using the concealment. So in order to be concealed in a crowd you'd need a spirit of man. It's not a hard core nerf the casters thing as much as trying to apply a narrative difference between spirit types and forcing them to not have a one size fits all tool for every problem.

[Black]

Thanks Lurks.  I might, however, move this to a new thread by itself, so not to take away from the OPs original question/concerns.

[TheNarrator]

Thanks for the suggestion.  Unfortunately, I already did that....and that freed up more BP to put into a specialization in Combat Spellcasting, for another bonus, rather than broadening the character in other ways! 

Well, your last hope is to go with the Karmagen system.

BP-builds encourage optimizing, because it's much better to buy up things really high with BP than buy them kinda high with BP and top it off with Karma. Karmagen fixes the issue since it costs more for that Troll to get that 1 last point of Body than bringing an entire new skill up to 4.

What he said. The flat BP costs during chargen encourage people to max out skills to start, because once they start play it's a lot cheaper in Karma to buy new skills at low levels than to increase existing skills to higher levels.

I haven't used the Karmagen system in SR4, but I played with the SR3 equivalent before, and it worked pretty well. Being able to get a couple skills at 1 for the same cost as raising one skill from 3 to 4 encourages people to diversify more.

[Mara]

One way I, personally, restrict my players is that I *REQUIRE* minimums of
Etiquette 2, Perception 2, and at least one non-combat, non-magic/resonance active skill at 1,
and for combat characters, I require that they have 2 skills in their specialty area, and 1 outside.
(I.E., if they are a close combat specialist, I expect them to have at least 2 close combat skills and
a ranged combat skill. If they are a gun specialist, I expect them to have 2 ranged combat skills and
a close combat skill).

I also expect everyone to have 1 attack skill at a minimum of 3, and dodge or gymnastics at 2.
Even Faces and Hackers get shot at, and need to be able to get out of the way, and fight back, you know.

[ArkangelWinter]

What Mara said. Perception, Data Search, a combat skill, and an artistic, hobby or technical skill are things it's hard not to pick up IRL, so I tend to make players have them. You never know when that Discovery special on Rock Climbing or those years spent skateboarding could save your life.

Also, First Aid.

[Mara]

What Mara said. Perception, Data Search, a combat skill, and an artistic, hobby or technical skill are things it's hard not to pick up IRL, so I tend to make players have them. You never know when that Discovery special on Rock Climbing or those years spent skateboarding could save your life.

Also, First Aid.

I firmly conseider being able to pick up an ambush and knowing how to not offend your contacts to be key survival skills...
Uncouth=Death Sentence in my games.

[Xarin]

RE: Concealment

Absolutely scrupulously enforce the difference between concealment and invisability. Concealment makes you more difficult to see if a perception test would be called for, but it doesn't do jack for you if there's no reason why a perception test would be needed. While it is still overpowered this distinction keeps the game from being all concealment power all the time.

In practical terms, you're saying that a Concealed target is perfectly visible, but actually noticing it or getting detailed information about it would be at a penalty??   If I want to say, "I'm looking for the summoner of that spirit with Concealment 6," I get a +3 for "Perceiver is actively looking/listening for it" and -6 for the Concealment, for a net -3 to determine whether I can notice the summoner standing there?

Or is it used only if the summoner is actively trying to hide behind cover, in a crowd, etc.?

Basically in practical terms if the summoner is just standing there in the open under reasonable lighting conditions their seen, no test required. Now as GM you have to make the call on when the conditions come up enough where perception tests are actually called for but yes in that instance the modifiers work much like you've said. Basically if the target can be reasonably seen with no special effort concealment doesn't apply, if they can't be readily seen without some level of practice or skill concealment does apply.

Now before I say this next bit I will point out that this my quasi houserule/fluff from previous editions. In my own games I limit concealment power to a setting appropriate for the creature or spirit using the concealment. So in order to be concealed in a crowd you'd need a spirit of man. It's not a hard core nerf the casters thing as much as trying to apply a narrative difference between spirit types and forcing them to not have a one size fits all tool for every problem.

Personally I see Concealment power as something along the lines of the "Perception Filters" you see if you watch a  lot of the newer Doctor Who or Torchwood shows from the BBC.  The Summoner is there, but you just don't really pay enough attention to 'notice' unless you get at least 1 hit on a Perception test (or beat the infiltrate hits if the summoner is actively hiding).  Handily, most basic security guards would have a shot at it if actively looking for the mage.  Standard 3 Int, likely a point or two in Perception, and possibly some cheap Vision or Audio enhancements in glasses / earplugs (they are guards after all, it makes sense).  Against a Force 6, it's easy for them toss at least 1 or 2 dice without trying, 4-5 if actively looking.  And that's just your basic rent-a-cop with no magical aid and cheap basic gear for his line of work.

[ArkangelWinter]

I firmly conseider being able to pick up an ambush and knowing how to not offend your contacts to be key survival skills...
Uncouth=Death Sentence in my games.

Oh, they certainly are, I agree. I was just listing skills I think every runner should have because you couldnt not have picked them up at some point.

Why that got me a cadre of smites, IDK. Hard to keep track of who I might have offended with so many threads.

[Black]

I firmly conseider being able to pick up an ambush and knowing how to not offend your contacts to be key survival skills...
Uncouth=Death Sentence in my games.

Oh, they certainly are, I agree. I was just listing skills I think every runner should have because you couldnt not have picked them up at some point.

Why that got me a cadre of smites, IDK. Hard to keep track of who I might have offended with so many threads.

I concur Arkangel, there appears to be a lot of smiting going on recently.  I've never noticed anything particularly smitable in your post (I have no idea why anyone would smite you at all), its just a weird thing going on currently. Keep on posting, ignore the smites.

[Critias]

I concur Arkangel, there appears to be a lot of smiting going on recently.  I've never noticed anything particularly smitable in your post (I have no idea why anyone would smite you at all), its just a weird thing going on currently. Keep on posting, ignore the smites.

It comes and goes, sometimes.  Every now and then someone (often someone new) gets a wild hair and goes on a smite/praise frenzy.  Over a long enough time period, it'll eventually settle back down and the activity will go back to normal.  Normal-ish, at least.  Some folks just hold grudges and have nothin' better to do.