[blackangel]

In fact for something like that I would probably have my players introduced in a feral city with very low tech and many hindrances upon magic. This way you could save a part of the bp creation and reintroduce them during game time like : you've been sponsored by a corp look at the catalogue (weapon, training...)

They will not earn karma faster but refuel their true potential within side stories.

[Cass100199]

Hell, let them do it. Tell them their kids at a corp boarding school. Play some runs so they get their jollies as low powered characters. Award the karma, but don't let them spend it. Then when they get tired and want to graduate to runners, they have karma to spend to turn into full growna dults with automatic weapons.Use this video for inspiration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJVmu6yttiw

[Ratboy]

I think you might do better using (erratad) karmagen ....

Where can I find the errata for the karmagen?  Is that what I have seen referenced as "German errata"?  My German is very rusty, so if there's an English translation, that would be helpful (though I guess chargen shouldn't require me to catch subtleties).

[All4BigGuns]

I think you might do better using (erratad) karmagen ....

Where can I find the errata for the karmagen?  Is that what I have seen referenced as "German errata"?  My German is very rusty, so if there's an English translation, that would be helpful (though I guess chargen shouldn't require me to catch subtleties).

Errata'd karma generation is new x 5 to raise attributes and metatypes cost karma equal to BP cost.  It also, as per a conversation with between the line developer and HeroLab gives 1000 karma to work with, so the 750 given by the book IS a reduction.

[JmOz01]

i would go with 350 to be honest, this allows for average stats (3's for humans), +1 in one stat.  I rounded up to get what I call a "nice" number

[All4BigGuns]

i would go with 350 to be honest, this allows for average stats (3's for humans), +1 in one stat.  I rounded up to get what I call a "nice" number

If you're talking karma generation, by the rules, you can't get average in everything, as that is more than half the points, and house ruling otherwise would cause there to be almost nothing left for the rest of character generation (resources, contacts, skills, etc.).

Talking about BP generation, you still run into the second issue of not having a decent pool left over for everything else.

400 BP or 750 karma with normal availability restrictions is just fine for creating newbie runners. For runners with some experience under their belt (which should be the norm IMO), the new figure of 1000 is more like it.

[Glyph]

400 BP is the default, and 750 karma with the errata is pretty close.  Characters built with it may be newbie runners (although they don't have to be), but they will be far from underpowered compared to most non-runners.

320 BP or 600 karma with a few additional limitations is what I consider street punks and wannabes - they might have some potential, but they will have to work their way up if they actually want to be considered "shadowrunners" some day.  I think that is more what the OP was talking about - personally, I prefer at least the normal 400 BP, and a low-powered campaign can be done better by telling the players to spread out their skills some more and have lower dice pool.  But we're trying to talk these guys up from 200 (!) BP.

[Ratboy]

400 BP is the default, and 750 karma with the errata is pretty close.  Characters built with it may be newbie runners (although they don't have to be), but they will be far from underpowered compared to most non-runners.

Yes.  That seems to generate runners who are already somewhat experienced.  Look at the skill table on p. 119.  A runner generated with RAW can start out with social skill equivalent to the President or head of state, technical skill of The Wright Brothers, or athletics of David Beckham!  "Far from underpowered compared to most non-runners" is an understatement.

320 BP or 600 karma with a few additional limitations is what I consider street punks and wannabes - they might have some potential, but they will have to work their way up if they actually want to be considered "shadowrunners" some day.

Well, as my players pointed out, a Halloweener in SR4A is around 220 BP, and a Halloweener lieutenant is around 250 BP, so I'd say that 320 BP is a street punk with LOTS of potential.  (The problem is, those Halloweeners don't even have Computer, Data Search, etc.)  A 200 BP build allows one or two skils at "Professional" level, but not much breadth.

I think that is more what the OP was talking about - personally, I prefer at least the normal 400 BP, and a low-powered campaign can be done better by telling the players to spread out their skills some more and have lower dice pool.  But we're trying to talk these guys up from 200 (!) BP.

Yeah, it was the hyperfocus and high dice pools with little growth potential in specialties that led to this "1st Level" campaign idea.  I would prefer a 320BP build with less specialization (maybe a skill max of "one 5 or two 4" or even "one 4 or two 3"). 

I called for help here only after these guys had already started running, so I'm stuck with it.  I just need to figure out some downgraded runs that wannabes would start out with.  They won't be very exciting--it's difficult to have corporate intrigue or major combat when they are just learning to tie shoelaces, but that's what they want.  Not every location can afford good security, and maybe outside the city they'll do better.  Maybe some hamlet has a rat problem. 

Oh, and I've learned that I'll want to use karmagen in the future!

[Ratboy]

Errata'd karma generation is new x 5 to raise attributes and metatypes cost karma equal to BP cost.

Well, that's easy!  Thanks!

[Tecumseh]

It looks like the Halloweener lieutenant as written in the book would cost 243 BP, but that excludes several potential costs:

1) Metatype
2) Special Attributes (Edge/Magic/Resonance)
3) Contacts
4) Qualities
5) anything that doesn't involve brawling

I just need to figure out some downgraded runs that wannabes would start out with.  They won't be very exciting--it's difficult to have corporate intrigue or major combat when they are just learning to tie shoelaces, but that's what they want.

There's plenty of fun to be had even if the characters aren't chopping up corporate security guards every week. I think gangs and syndicates are just as much fun and have all the same potential for Machiavellian intrigue and large-scale rumbles. Granted the fights won't include Rob Liefeld guns or head-popping called shots, but that creates the opportunity for the players to actually lose a fight without it costing them their lives. Courier, Distraction, Destruction, Enforcement, and Protection/Security are all good mission concepts for level one characters. Maybe the trick is to stop thinking of them as shadowrunners, and all that implies, and think of them as street toughs trying to make their way in the Sixth World.

[JustADude]

400 BP is the default, and 750 karma with the errata is pretty close.  Characters built with it may be newbie runners (although they don't have to be), but they will be far from underpowered compared to most non-runners.

Yes.  That seems to generate runners who are already somewhat experienced.  Look at the skill table on p. 119.  A runner generated with RAW can start out with social skill equivalent to the President or head of state, technical skill of The Wright Brothers, or athletics of David Beckham!  "Far from underpowered compared to most non-runners" is an understatement.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: "Standard 400BP runners are some scary, spooky dudes."

[Carmody]

you said that your players have already created their characters. Can you post one for us to understand what they plan to play with.
Maybe we can give you some arguments to explain them that those characters are really not playable...

[Bastwolf]

I would recommend a 300BP instead if you want to progress quickly. You will need a decent number of people to do is but each person can specialize on their individual roles. Just be sure to give them plenty of Karma and NY for missions.

[Nolanrocks]

Well it shouldnt be to hard on you, but tough on your players since there more wannabe shadowrunners. Start off with some bottom feeder missions like;

A local land lord hires them as cheap exterminators to get rid of the rat infestation just watch out theres a few devil rats in there and my tenets arnt happy.

In the teams local community people start disapearing the team is hired to find out whats happening and resuce any one they can. (People are being abducted by a small group of ghouls and storing there victems in an (Abandon building/ Mosulim/ Sewers).)

Hire to put the beat down on a small time razor boy, a pimp recruiets the players to beat down a john whos been rufffing up his girls.

Smash & Grab a local fixer has a limited time opertunity to pawn off jewlery at a higher rate than normal which he hopes to get a large payoff from so he hires the runners (probly multipul small timers) to raid the jewlry stores in town and bring back as much loot as they can by days end to get a small cut.

Chop Shop hiers the team to boost cars. Gang has them run guns/drugs through hostile turf. They can get hired by real shadowrunners as decoys/spotters/fodder for corpsec.

Once they've got there feet wet get them to go on a published adventuer like "On the Run" if there sucsessfull then let them get better and better jobs if they die well then they die there the ones who ultimantly choose wich jobs to take and which to refuse. Let them develope there characters starting off as wannabees let them find out if they have what it takes to actualy step into the shadows and hang with the mediocre boys.

[Ratboy]

Can you post one for us to understand what they plan to play with.
Maybe we can give you some arguments to explain them that those characters are really not playable...

Basically, scaled-down versions of Bounty Hunter, Adept Occult Investigator, Summoner/Healer, and Covert Ops (actually, small-time B&E).  No hacking skill but they have some contacts.  I'm insisting on them getting some Data Search and Computer skill themselves.

Start off with some bottom feeder missions like;

A local land lord hires them as cheap exterminators to get rid of the rat infestation just watch out theres a few devil rats in there and my tenets arnt happy.

Yeah...I promised them "rats in the basement" if they went with 200BP!

In the teams local community people start disapearing the team is hired to find out whats happening and resuce any one they can. (People are being abducted by a small group of ghouls and storing there victems in an (Abandon building/ Mosulim/ Sewers).)

Hire to put the beat down on a small time razor boy, a pimp recruiets the players to beat down a john whos been rufffing up his girls.

Smash & Grab a local fixer has a limited time opertunity to pawn off jewlery at a higher rate than normal which he hopes to get a large payoff from so he hires the runners (probly multipul small timers) to raid the jewlry stores in town and bring back as much loot as they can by days end to get a small cut.

Chop Shop hiers the team to boost cars. Gang has them run guns/drugs through hostile turf. They can get hired by real shadowrunners as decoys/spotters/fodder for corpsec.

These were the sort of ideas I was looking for.  Thanks!