[The Dread Polack]

So, after a long break, we're getting the old band back together and starting a new SR4 campaign. We're trying something a bit different than our last campaign. What we have so far is:

Driver/Face: light cyber, Heavy social.
Security Guy: Highly skilled, competent short-range shooter.
Physical/Social Adept: Not sure exactly where he's going, but building around Missile Mastery.
Mage: Leaning toward support/investigative type magic.

And that leaves me. I've always wanted to play a ghoul, and here they're giving me my chance. I don't know how it's going to work out. My concept is that he's the guy who is a physical bag of tricks. He can do the sorts of things people can't normally do. He can get into difficult places and perform difficult tasks. Also, he will be a melee brawler.

So, I am thinking Adept. I already see the problem with having Essense 5. I am hoping to work with this. Most of my group is not min/maxer types, and we all appreciate a cool concept.

With that in mind, I'm looking for suggestions and advice on how to build an interesting and effective character. What I am not looking for is "Don't do it. It's not an optimal build". I do, however, welcome specific warnings of potential problems that might come up.

Specific questions:

Should I take improved reflexes or just try to go for synaptic boosters, along with perhaps some other augmentations?

Freefall, Gliding, and Great Leap sound interesting, but don't look very effective with their numbers. Any experience with these, and are they worth taking?

Do I need to take immediate precautions to protect myself as a dual-natured being. I know that astrally projecting mages and various spirits can basically nuke while I am helpless to do anything about it. I plan to initiate and get masking ASAP, but what, if anything, should I start with?

I'm pretty sure I'm going to skip killing hands and just go with my claws. I don't believe Critical Strike stacks with claws, so any other ideas for how to be a good brawler as a ghoul? I might just jack up my Unarmed Combat or Blades.

Are the Way of the Adept qualities any good? Looks like you have to take several of the powers on the list to make it worth it, and I don't know if I'm gonna specialize that much.

Any gear suggestions?

[All4BigGuns]

Warrior's Way is--in my opinion--the best of them since the powers it affects are among the most expensive. I advise dumping the idea of putting 'ware into an Adept into the nearest river and working with what power points you have. Improved Reflexes at level 1 should be plenty, as there's no real point in going for that third (or fourth) pass.

I'd actually advise against being a Ghoul--don't really like them myself--as unless you blow some BP on the Infertile Infected quality, you'll need to be in a full body suit of armor with a chemical seal to avoid infecting your team by the actual rules.

[The Dread Polack]

I'm not sure I'll take enough off the Warrior's Way list to make it worth it, but I'll have a look.

Someone here claimed that the 1 point of essense lost from the HMHVV infection was a "hole" that could be filled with 'ware. Does that make sense? That would help a bit.

I've made an adept before and had it poitned out to me that synaptic boosters are way cheaper on essence than Improved Reflexes are on Magic, so if you have the money, you can get more powers and still have extra IPs that can't get EMPed. Even after the boosters, you can take more bioware and still not lose a full Power Point.

Infecting the rest of the party hasn't been discussed, but we're a pretty common-sense sort of group. Also, I've seen that the rules for infection have been changed in Running Wild so that it's "Injection" based now. I'm pretty sure I have to claw or bite my party members in order to infect them, which is certainly possible. Either way, I'm taking the Infertile qualtiy, if the GM allows,  for the easy points. Honestly, I don't understand that quality for ghouls. Infirtile, if anything, is a bonus if it means *not* infecting your allies, and it's not like a disease you can transmit through biting or clawing people that might kill them in a day or two is really much of an advantage. There are so many better ways of killing or messing with people in SR.

[All4BigGuns]

Someone here claimed that the 1 point of essense lost from the HMHVV infection was a "hole" that could be filled with 'ware. Does that make sense? That would help a bit.

I haven't seen a quote verifying that claim. Removing implants that took Essence leaves a "hole", but as far as I'm aware, the reduced Essence of a Ghoul is just gone entirely with no "hole" to put things in. I will continue on this thinking until I see a book quote stating otherwise.

Infecting the rest of the party hasn't been discussed, but we're a pretty common-sense sort of group. Also, I've seen that the rules for infection have been changed in Running Wild so that it's "Injection" based now. I'm pretty sure I have to claw or bite my party members in order to infect them, which is certainly possible. Either way, I'm taking the Infertile qualtiy, if the GM allows,  for the easy points. Honestly, I don't understand that quality for ghouls. Infirtile, if anything, is a bonus if it means *not* infecting your allies, and it's not like a disease you can transmit through biting or clawing people that might kill them in a day or two is really much of an advantage. There are so many better ways of killing or messing with people in SR.

I've seen that supposed "errata", and considering that it's found on Google Docs rather than anything official and that it contains nothing even suggesting that it's official, it should be discounted until word is gotten from Mr. Hardy himself that it is. Until that time, the only way HMHVV isn't Contact with Power 8 and Penetration -6 is via house rule, and that can't be counted on.

If you take the quality, then the character could be viable, otherwise, you'd just be a threat to the team or killed by the team on meeting so you wouldn't infect them.

[ArkangelWinter]

The Errata was the work of the author, apparently to fix those rules to fit his original intention, but is not official CGL errata.

[All4BigGuns]

... but is not official CGL errata.

Key portion here. Until it is official, it should be disregarded when talking about rules as written. It is a possible house rule and that's it.

[UmaroVI]

I would think really, really hard about being a Mystic Adept. A little bit of magic will help a lot with getting owned by spirits, and it actually synergizes really well with ghoul, melee, bag of tricks, and infiltration.

Do you have a specific base metatype that you definitely want to be? Fomori and Ork both work quite well.

You have to take at least 1 point of ware. Not having cybereyes on a ghoul is just not a sane move, unless you like a huge laundry list of drawbacks (going blind in BGC 5+, not being able to read or use computer screens....)

[The Dread Polack]

"Essence Hole":

The original poster retracted that statement, admitting it was an old misunderstanding, so that is a dead discussion. Good to know.

Updated Ghoul Infection rules:

Someone said it was in Running Wild. Now that I'm home, I've had a look and it's not there. I will have to have a talk with my GM about exactly how to handle this. I suspect it will simply be house-ruled, likely to the popular version mentioned above.

Mystic Adept:

I'm wary of Mystic Adepts. It seems like it would be hard to be both an effective caster with a weak Magic and an effective adept with such few Power Points. Sounds like that hasn't been your experience. Can you tell me more about how it's worked out for you? I feel like I barely have enough Magic to get the PP I want, much less also be able to cast spells effectively.

Metatype :

I was just going to go with human. I really need the BP for the skills I want. Also, the group theme is not the typical "ragtag band of misfits" and more like a group of humans and elves from the same neighborhood. It's already messed up enough that I'm a ghoul. We're going with the story that one of the PCs is a former co-worker on a security force who stuck with me after I got infected, and when he gets shadowrunning jobs, I come with him, which might start him with a point of notoriety.

I played an ork previously, and I'm also trying to steer away from previous character concepts. I thought about elf, but I felt like spending 30 BP for elf, then losing my low-light vision would be better spent on several more skill points.

'Ware

I am definitely considering a point of ware. I really like the idea of playing a physically blind character who makes up for it with his astral sight. He can't read computer screens, and he probably can't legally drive, but he isn't going to run into walls. I haven't given it as much consideration as I might need to. Is it really that bad without cybereyes?

The problem, at this point, is that I'm spending 55 BP to get a final total Magic of 4, and if I'm making him a Mystic adept, then he can overcast spells at force 4 and have 2 power points of abilities. I'm not a min/maxer, but this sounds like a bad idea.

[Makki]

I don't think mystic adept will work. And you don't need it for your concept.

A point of 'ware is really good. Get cheap stuff at start and upgrade for more and higher grade later on. A lot of potential and, seriously, who wants to be blind, if he can afford cybereyes. Especially someone, who is used to the sense of vision.
If you plan on trying to be inconspicious, read this thread: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=37054

[The Dread Polack]

Yeah, I briefly thought about Mystic Adept, but it doesn't sound like a good idea for me.

Unless they want to drastically reduce the cost of powers for adepts, there seems to be certain things, like synaptic boosters, that just seem obviously better gotten than powers. Especially in this case, neither a mana warp nor an EMP can knock them out, and the essence loss is way cheaper than the PP cost. The only downside is that you need to put a lot of BP into nuyen if you want to start with them. Part of the charm of ghouls, for me, was that they were blind, but I am seriously considering cybereyes.

Yeah, I read the Biosculpting thread. I'm definitely not going to start with it, since I might take Facial Sculpt and/or Melanin Control.

[UmaroVI]

Whether Mystic Adepts work depends on whether you use the SR4A version (where the PP/Magic split just affects PP and dice pools), or the SR4+FAQ version where they use the lowered magic for all purposes, including how much they can overcast. Some people still consider the FAQ to overrule SR4A, so you do want to check with your GM. If you are using the SR4A version, then yes, mystic adept actually works quite well for this. If not mystic adepts are terrible at everything.

Elf is a much worse idea than Human. Ork or Troll would really help you a lot but if you really want to be human you can probably come out OK; keep in mind some people still goblinize, if you want to go with the childhood friends angle. You could even be a Human-Looking ork and still come out ahead.

[All4BigGuns]

Whether Mystic Adepts work depends on whether you use the SR4A version (where the PP/Magic split just affects PP and dice pools), or the SR4+FAQ version where they use the lowered magic for all purposes, including how much they can overcast. Some people still consider the FAQ to overrule SR4A, so you do want to check with your GM. If you are using the SR4A version, then yes, mystic adept actually works quite well for this. If not mystic adepts are terrible at everything.

Looking at his comment on Mystic Adept, it looks like he's under the impression of the SR4 + FAQ version being the case since he mentioned the overcast max of 4.

[MachineGunBallet]

I've been eying a... Chaos Mage who's a bit cybered up.

I'm struggling to figure out how he'd work and get a decent back story.  I was thinking of a military trained combat mage.  In many respects he's just going in too many directions and this needs to be narrowed down.

The idea is that with the 1 Essence you burn on cyber, you gotta get a lot of Bang for your Buck. Loaded up datajack... AV\VR, and skin link, gives you a PAN with an external commlink. i.e. a Cerebral Booster +3 Restricted, gives you +3 dice on Drain Resistance, Platelet factories, reduce Drain Damage, and a Pain Editor...

We're talking about a Mage who can indeed go all day and aid in many environments.

Biggest issues are that you want Alpha grade (or better) upgrades (gotta keep it under 1 Essence), and this stands at odds now with the cost of gear (Foci) and skills.


The equivalent with an adept works well too.. Adept, + Type O system, gives you the equivalent of some 2 Essence of Bio upgrades. You just need to use what ever is more efficient at achieving your final result.  For example... MuscleToner 2, Muscle Augmentation 2, and Bone Density Augmentation 4 costs just 1 essence.  Bone Density 4 easily replaces several Adept powers...  Improved Physical Attribute (2X2) Killing Hands, and Mystic armor (4) which strictly as an Adept cost 5.5 Magic Points.



This will give you an idea....  (He's running out of points while I muddle through this...  Looking at above... gotta like Type O Adepts.)

Unnamed Hero (Human Magician)
B 2, A 4, R 5, S 1, C 3, I 3, L 5/8, W 5, E 2, Ess 5.18, M 4, Init 8, IP 1
Condition Monitor boxes (Physical/Stun): 9/11
Armor (Ballistic/Impact): 2/2
Skills: Assensing 4, Conjuring Group 1, Dodge 4, Perception 1, Sorcery Group 4, Unarmed Combat 1
Knowledge Skills: English N
Qualities: Astral Chameleon, Biosystem Overstress, Low Pain Tolerance, Magician, Mentor Spirit: Wise Warrior, Records on File: UCAS Military, Restricted Gear: Cerebral Booster (Alphaware), Restricted Gear: Pain Editor, SINner
Spells: Crank, Fireball, Heal, Stunball, Stunbolt
Cyberware:
. . Datajack (Alphaware) with Engraved Datajack (Alphaware), Sim Module, Modified for Hot Sim, Skinlink, Wireless Adapter
Bioware:
. . Cerebral Booster (Alphaware) (3)
. . Pain Editor
Gear:
. . Identity: Specify Name
. . Magical Lodge (6)
. . Power Focus (2)
Weapons:
. . Attack of Will (vs. Spirits) [DV 3P vs. I]
. . Unarmed Strike [Unarmed, DV 1S vs. I]
Ammunition & Resources:
. . +2 dice for Combat spells - 0/0
. . +2 dice for Detection spells - 0/0
. . - Independent - - 0/0
. . Act Honorably - 0/0
. . Astral Chameleon - 0/0
. . Biosystem Overstress - 0/0
. . Dropped to Ground - 0/0
. . Edge Pool - 0/2
. . Low Pain Tolerance - 0/0
. . Magical Lodge (6) - 0/0
. . Magician - 0/0
. . Mentor Spirit: Wise Warrior - 0/0
. . Power Focus (2) - 0/0
. . Records on File: UCAS Military - 0/0
. . Restricted Gear: Cerebral Booster (Alphaware) - 0/0
. . Restricted Gear: Pain Editor - 0/0
. . SINner - 0/0

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[Snaryl]

@MachineGunBallet -  Not sure how that relates to the OPs desire to make a Ghoul Adept, the character you posted is clearly a human without the Ghoul characteristcs. This would be much better in its own thread.

[The Dread Polack]

Yeah, I was going with the SR4+FAQ version. Didn't even realize there was a difference.

I will probably build a couple different versions of this character and pick the one I like most. I don't know what I'll end up with, but the mystic Adept version doesn't match my original concept very well. I'm hoping that the rest of the party, will have my back well enough that I won't need to cover ranged combat (except maybe some thrown daggers) and spells.