[DireRadiant]

I recognize the merits of your plan, but you don't have to convince me. You have to convince Mr. Smith, the guy who hasn't quit grasped how differently business is conducted in the shadows than from the boardroom.

This brings up a point. Whatever we as players may think we know, it is our characters knowledge and skills that are being used.

If Mr Smith thinks IC that Plan X is appropriate, and Mr Smith has the requisite skills and experience, no matter how silly the notion may appear to us as Players, Plan X will in fact be appropriate, and the GM will make it happen that way. I am only choosing Mr Smith to demonstrate here.

When comparing character plan merits, you may look at their respective Character skills as a baseline to evaluate.

Sometimes it may appear to be a challenge to the Player and GM, but that's the fun of it. Gives us an opportunity for a cool story to explain why some whacky idea actually works.

[bmoham]

I recognize the merits of your plan, but you don't have to convince me. You have to convince Mr. Smith, the guy who hasn't quit grasped how differently business is conducted in the shadows than from the boardroom.

This brings up a point. Whatever we as players may think we know, it is our characters knowledge and skills that are being used.

If Mr Smith thinks IC that Plan X is appropriate, and Mr Smith has the requisite skills and experience, no matter how silly the notion may appear to us as Players, Plan X will in fact be appropriate, and the GM will make it happen that way. I am only choosing Mr Smith to demonstrate here.

When comparing character plan merits, you may look at their respective Character skills as a baseline to evaluate.

Sometimes it may appear to be a challenge to the Player and GM, but that's the fun of it. Gives us an opportunity for a cool story to explain why some whacky idea actually works.

Ok, I'm a little confused. I'm all for a distinction between IC and OOC knowledge, but if OOC we as players know it will fail, then I don't see why it would succeed just because of IC ignorance. We might try it anyway, but I don't see why we would actually succeed.

In this particular case it's not even IC vs OOC - it's one persons IC knowledge vs other players' IC knowledge. As you've said, multiple payers have gang knowledge - so we should have some sense IC of what is and is not a plausible plan. My character has a lot of dice for intimidate. Smith has a lot of dice for negotiation, but if we IC know that member of a thrill gang isn't going to back down publicly then the dice pool doesn't really matter. We need to get him alone.

If you are telling those of us with gang knowledge that a certain type of plan can't work then Smith can either accept the fact other characters know more about gangs than he does, or he can try and fail. Right?

[bmoham]

Another alternative is to Spoof a real SIN for a short time. It's really a matter of having a legitimate accessID being broadcasted with a valid SIN attached.  You only need the SIN to work if someone actually bothers to check it.

Computer + Analyze to see a real accessID(Threshhold 1)/SIN(Threshhold 6) to copy.(You 'd have to be somewhere where you could see someone else's real accessID and SIN being used.
Hacking/Computer + Spoof to broadcast that copied accessID/SIN(Threshold 2)

You can also simply go in Hidden mode and avoid specific areas. Another is to use a vehicle that has legitimate access.... If you only knew some people with vehicles that can travel in and out of various zones and smuggle stuff so you could be smuggled to this meet.

Good points. I withdraw my request. I'll put up the 600 nuyen for a pirated rating 6 track program, since it seems to keep coming up.

[WhackedMaki]

I think what DR is saying is that no matter what plan we go with, he'll try to make it work. No GM should ever have "unless they do this, it fails" in my opinion, and I think that's what he's saying. Some ways might be harder then others, but he doesn't want to force us to do it one way.

[bmoham]

I think what DR is saying is that no matter what plan we go with, he'll try to make it work. No GM should ever have "unless they do this, it fails" in my opinion, and I think that's what he's saying. Some ways might be harder then others, but he doesn't want to force us to do it one way.

Makes sense. I guess my problem now is I don't know how my character should respond to Smith.
I was working under the assumption that Jack was pretty sure that a public diplomacy effort couldn't work - even assuming Smith is a world class negotiator. We don't have anything to offer that would be worth risking the embarrassment within the gang that make that sort of deal might cause.
If that sort of negotiation is just something Jack isn't good at, as opposed to something that Jack's knowledge skill tells him is unlikely to work, then he would probably have had a different initial reaction and definitely would have a different response to Smith's comment.

[DireRadiant]

I don't think it unreasonable to just call up the 405 Hell Hounds and talk. It's a standard way for gangs to negotiate with each other. Even if they are psychotic thrill seeking go gangers. He has a day job, and therefore most of the time a "normal" life. As do most of the gang members. Allowing Basset to set the terms of the meet makes it more likely that you will in fact meet and start it where he will at least give you a chance to make your pitch and that he will listen.

The fracas at the Aramadillo was very minor, on the scale of a loud but short bar fight and trashing. No firearms were used for example. No one died. Threats were made, but the 405, hit a few people, trashed some furniture, and left.

Of course, ultimately, whatever plan you make, if your skills and dice roll falls right, it will of course work.

[bmoham]

I don't think it unreasonable to just call up the 405 Hell Hounds and talk. It's a standard way for gangs to negotiate with each other. Even if they are psychotic thrill seeking go gangers. He has a day job, and therefore most of the time a "normal" life. As do most of the gang members. Allowing Basset to set the terms of the meet makes it more likely that you will in fact meet and start it where he will at least give you a chance to make your pitch and that he will listen.

The fracas at the Aramadillo was very minor, on the scale of a loud but short bar fight and trashing. No firearms were used for example. No one died. Threats were made, but the 405, hit a few people, trashed some furniture, and left.

Of course, ultimately, whatever plan you make, if your skills and dice roll falls right, it will of course work.

Ok, I must have misunderstood something. Necrogigas, give them a call. It sounds like I blew this way out of proportion by getting everyone involved - I'll have to think up a good reason why Jack overreacted.

[DireRadiant]

Not really an overreaction. The 405 Hell Hounds are a gang that can easily wipe The Armadillo off the map for fun. And they are all about having fun.

[DiscoDwarf]

Hey guys, just dropping a line I‘m still alive. Been sick as hell and had to take care of my girlfriend (from who I got sick in the first place, but I recover faster), and for some reason I‘m no longer getting notified of new posts.

I‘m using my phone right now, so I‘ll wait ‘till later this evening when I‘m finally home with a real computer to catch up and start posting again. Just wanted to make sure you didn‘t I think I had quit.

[Ethan]

I don't think it was an overreaction to call in the crew.

Gangs are unpredictable after all. So, how do we move this along?

[bmoham]

I don't think it was an overreaction to call in the crew.

Gangs are unpredictable after all. So, how do we move this along?

I think we need Smith to make a phone call (and whatever the associated roll is) and see how close he can get to making it go away while the rest of the group drinks beer and eats burgers.

[DiscoDwarf]

OK, so flu bugs regrouped for a final, desperate assault against my now experienced but still recovering immune system and managed to find a few breaches to slip through and make me feel like hell for a day more. But now I'm back.

I just re-read both threads and will try to address everything I've seen.

First, concerning HB's "plan". It wasn't much to begin with, didn't expect people to follow along. However, merely because HB knows something about gangs doesn't mean he's going to act cautiously. Sure, the 405s are second-tier gangs on par with the Spikes or the Crimson Crush. But as I pointed out, he is 14 . Sure, he is more mature than some 14s, but having worked as a high school teacher, there are a lot of young teens who have taken part in gang violence who see it as some kind of game. Having a girl in my class tell me with a wide grin she liked looking at a dead body is scary as shit. HB isn't much different, he is a vindictive hobgoblin built for personal combat that takes the merest slight as a personal insult worth a vendetta.

Concerning Smith's plan of negotiating, I would be willing to say it's an idea, but given the 405s' notoriety and power versus our anonymity in the shadows, we can expect them to be derisive and ask ridiculous amounts of money or impossible tasks, no matter what's Smith's negotiation pool, because they won't feel like they need to negotiate. That's the hitch: the whole Negotiation skill is based on the premise that both parties are willing to offer something. As such, some legwork to get some leverage on "Basset" (guess all the cool dog breeds were taken) will be needed before negotiation is even a possibility.

About Jack and SINs ... unless I've been misreading this game for years, a SIN isn't needed to walk around. Some higher end neighbourhood will have drones scan people at random to verify whether they should be there, but this is a sprawl, when you walk on the main thoroughfares, there are tens to hundreds of people around you, and the drone can't scan them. Sure, the SIN is needed if you want to use any public service (including a bus), but most taxi services (which are a private service) will accept credsticks, no questions asked. The same goes with using the GridLink for vehicle: a registered (or spoofed) accessID is needed to use the Grid's power and functions, but there are plenty of old fossil-fuel vehicles around that don't need the electricity, and you won't have access to the Grid's live traffic analysis that helps you recalculate your course and allows you to essentially sleep while the car drives itself (which doesn't really require a GridLink, just good Sensor and Pilot, as Google proved it). Just make sure you're not getting pulled over for doing something stupid.

As for moving this along, a call, I am still of the opinion that appropriate leverage would be needed before arranging a meet. Maybe go on that Paranimal hunt Saint's got to do and see if we can find a real Hellhound and give it to Basset as a "we're sorry" gift.

By the way DR, still waiting on my IC post.

[bmoham]

Concerning Smith's plan of negotiating, I would be willing to say it's an idea, but given the 405s' notoriety and power versus our anonymity in the shadows, we can expect them to be derisive and ask ridiculous amounts of money or impossible tasks, no matter what's Smith's negotiation pool, because they won't feel like they need to negotiate. That's the hitch: the whole Negotiation skill is based on the premise that both parties are willing to offer something. As such, some legwork to get some leverage on "Basset" (guess all the cool dog breeds were taken) will be needed before negotiation is even a possibility.

That was my first thought as well, but I think DR said we were wrong, and since our characters know gangs, I think we would know that IC.

[WhackedMaki]

At this point it seems we've stalled out on moving forward, so we need to actually come up with a plan and start doing it.

[Necrogigas]

People just need to start posting. I'm waiting on everyone else for things to move forward at the Armadillo, and I'm waiting on DR to post for my contact 2Fresh.