[Strungest]

I am joining a shadowrun game if a few days and this is my first character. I dont have the best grasp of the rules yet, so the group suggested I play the "muscle" because it isn't that complicated. I have extensive experence with 3.5 CharOp, but I just started reading the shadowrun rulebook three days ago.

Goals: Non-obvious , No 4xcyber lims trolls dual wielding HMGs. High potental for upgrades/improvement. High lethality, and solid non-lethal options. Ranged combat is prefered. Optimization is emphasized, roleplay is secondary as I am learning the rules.


I have almost no idea what I am doing, so any advice will be accepted. I really need help on equipment, as the number of options is mind-blowing. I have just under 90 BP left, so there is much room to manuver. Nothing is sacred, so anything can be changed.


== Info ==
Street Name:
Name: Unnamed Character
Movement: 10/25, Swim: 5
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Ork
Composure: 5
Judge Intentions: 6
Lift/Carry: 11 (45 kg/30 kg)
Memory: 6
Nuyen: 0

== Attributes ==
BOD: 8
AGI: 5
REA: 5 (7)
STR: 3
CHA: 2
INT: 4
LOG: 3
WIL: 3
EDG: 1
MAG: 0

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   3
Initiative:                9 (11)
IP:                        1 (3)
Astral Initiative:         8
Astral IP:                 3
Matrix Initiative:         4
Matrix IP:                 1
Physical Damage Track:     12
Stun Damage Track:         10

== Active Skills ==
Animal Handling            : 0                      Pool: 3
Animal Training            : 0                      Pool: 3
Archery                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Armorer                    : 0                      Pool: 2
Artisan                    : 0                      Pool: 3
Automatics                 : 6                      Pool: 11
Blades                     : 0                      Pool: 4
Climbing                   : 0                      Pool: 2
Clubs                      : 0                      Pool: 4
Computer                   : 0                      Pool: 2
Con                        : 0                      Pool: 1
Cybercombat                : 0                      Pool: 2
Data Search                : 0                      Pool: 2
Demolitions                : 0                      Pool: 2
Disguise                   : 0                      Pool: 3
Diving                     : 0                      Pool: 7
Dodge                      : 4                      Pool: 11
Escape Artist              : 0                      Pool: 4
Etiquette                  : 1                      Pool: 3
First Aid                  : 0                      Pool: 2
Flight                     : 0                      Pool: 2
Forgery                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Gunnery                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Gymnastics                 : 0                      Pool: 4
Hacking                    : 0                      Pool: 2
Heavy Weapons              : 0                      Pool: 4
Infiltration               : 4                      Pool: 9
Instruction                : 0                      Pool: 1
Intimidation               : 1                      Pool: 3
Leadership                 : 0                      Pool: 1
Locksmith                  : 0                      Pool: 4
Longarms                   : 0                      Pool: 4
Navigation                 : 0                      Pool: 3
Negotiation                : 0                      Pool: 1
Palming                    : 0                      Pool: 4
Parachuting                : 0                      Pool: 7
Perception                 : 4                      Pool: 8
Pilot Ground Craft         : 0                      Pool: 6
Pilot Watercraft           : 0                      Pool: 6
Pistols                    : 1                      Pool: 6
Riding                     : 0                      Pool: 6
Running                    : 0                      Pool: 2
Shadowing                  : 0                      Pool: 3
Survival                   : 0                      Pool: 2
Swimming                   : 0                      Pool: 2
Throwing Weapons           : 0                      Pool: 4
Tracking                   : 0                      Pool: 3
Unarmed Combat             : 4                      Pool: 9

== Knowledge Skills ==

== Qualities ==
Erased (24 Hours)
In Debt (30,000¥)
Low-Light Vision
Pacifist (Minor)

== Lifestyles ==
Middle  1 months

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Wired Reflexes Rating 2

== Armor ==
Armor Jacket              8/6
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit6/2
SecureTech PPP Armor (Ensemble with Helmet)2/6

== Weapons ==
AVC-7.62
   DV: 7P   AP: -1   RC: 1
Beretta 97
   DV: 5P   AP: -   RC: 0
Unarmed Attack
   DV: 2S   AP: -   RC: 0

[Ethan]

Hey there Strungest, do you have an idea of what weapon types you want to use?

First, stats: You may attract your GM's ire by having a Logic of 1. 2-3 means "average" so you can get away with that. I'd reduce Charisma to 2 and bump Logic to 2. Also, you may want to remove the points for the Social Group and just put some in Ettiquette or perhaps Intimidation. No one expects the Street Sam to be diplomatic, just slightly well-behaved.

Second, the skills: Infiltration and Perception are usually required for just about any character. You need to be sneaky sometimes, and you need to be aware of things. Focus on one weapons skill and set that thing to 6. Pistols, Longarms, Automatics, or even Heavy Weapons.

Third, the 'ware: Aluminum lacing and wired reflexes aren't "visible" but any metal detector should light up your bone lacing. I'd consider removing that, since you have a Body of 8.


And wait, what? He's an Adept? Okay, remove the Cyberware totally for now. Adepts use Magic, which is lowered by 'ware. It can also be used to provide some of the same benefits of 'ware. You can combine both, but it requires some finesse.

Do you want to be an Adept Street Sam, a 'Wared Street Sam, or a mix of both?

[Scarecrow71]

Welcome to the craziness that is 4th edition.  I've got a couple things to tack on here.

1.  Drop the specializations with skills.  It's cheaper in the long run to do it with Karma, because you can take the 2 BP and use it one something else now.

2.  You have...tons of skills.  And you aren't very good at most of them.  Is he a street sam, a face, a B&E specialist...what is he?

I calculated what you are spending on skills, and I've got you at 60 for skill groups and 70 for skills, for a total of 130 spread out as:

Groups
Athletics 2
Electronics 1
Influence 1
Outdoors 1
Stealth 1

Skills
Automatics 6 (Battle Rifles)
Blades 1
Clubs 1
Perception 1
Pistols 4
Unarmed Combat 4

Again, lots of skills, and you aren't very good at any of them.  You should focus on one or two areas and load those up instead of trying to get everything.  Being mediocre at a lot of skills will get you to accomplish almost nothing once you start playing.

For starters, drop Electronics altogether (Computer, Data Search, Hardware, Software).  This skill group is linked to LOG, and your LOG is 1.  Not to mention that you aren't a hacker, so there is really no point in trying to do this stuff on your own.  You'll save yourself 10 BP right here.

You are spending 42 BP on Automatics (specialized) and Pistols, but for 40 BP you could take the entire Firearms skill group at 4.  This would give you Automatics, Longarms, and Pistols all at 4 and you've still got 2 more BP to play with.

On a similar thread, you are spending 24 BP for Blades 1, Clubs 1, and Unarmed 4.  While these skills are good, it's best (in my opinion) to pick one and go with it.  You never want to get into a gun fight armed only with your fists.  Shadowrunners are fragile, and most fights are going to involve weapons.  If you really need these, take the Close Combat group at 2 and save yourself 2 BP in the process.

At this point, if you take my advice (which you don't have to - it's merely a suggestion), you are at 134 total BP spent on skills.  Yes, that is 4 more than I stated you were at currently.  But you still need to decide what type of Street Samurai you want to be.  You've got 10 BP tied up in Influence, 10 in Outdoors, and 10 in Stealth.  If you drop all 3 of these groups, that puts you at 104, or 26 less than you started with.  I suggest to pick one of these and drop all 30 BP in that one area.  This will make you effective at not only weapons (per Firearms and Close Combat), but also skilled in one specific area.  And your INT, CHA, and WIL scores are all 3, so any of these is good.

Just my 2 cents.

[Operator]

The Firearms group is one to consider carefully, since Longarms' usefulness is limited to sniper rifles and sport rifles.

Shotguns in SR4 suffer the following drawbacks:
1) Hard or impossible to conceal. The shortbarrel Defiance T-250 from Arsenal is an exception, being in the same category as a heavy pistol.
2) Can't accept Gasvent modifications. The Auto-Assault 16 (also from Arsenal) includes a built-in Gas vent 2 modification - this makes it the best shotgun worthy of your consideration. Other shotguns in Shadowrun should be considered purely on a basis of flavor.
3) Uncompensated recoil from shotguns shooting in burst fire mode (BF/FA) is doubled.

[All4BigGuns]

The Firearms group is one to consider carefully, since Longarms' usefulness is limited to sniper rifles and sport rifles.

Shotguns in SR4 suffer the following drawbacks:
1) Hard or impossible to conceal. The shortbarrel Defiance T-250 from Arsenal is an exception, being in the same category as a heavy pistol.
2) Can't accept Gasvent modifications. The Auto-Assault 16 (also from Arsenal) includes a built-in Gas vent 2 modification - this makes it the best shotgun worthy of your consideration. Other shotguns in Shadowrun should be considered purely on a basis of flavor.
3) Uncompensated recoil from shotguns shooting in burst fire mode (BF/FA) is doubled.

You can't forget that if the fecal matter hits the rotating blades and security is locked down tight, that shotgun filled with Shock Lock rounds can be a serious boon in getting your hoop out of there.

Welcome to the craziness that is 4th edition.  I've got a couple things to tack on here.

1.  Drop the specializations with skills.  It's cheaper in the long run to do it with Karma, because you can take the 2 BP and use it one something else now.

2.  You have...tons of skills.  And you aren't very good at most of them.  Is he a street sam, a face, a B&E specialist...what is he?

I calculated what you are spending on skills, and I've got you at 60 for skill groups and 70 for skills, for a total of 130 spread out as:

Groups
Athletics 2
Electronics 1
Influence 1
Outdoors 1
Stealth 1

Skills
Automatics 6 (Battle Rifles)
Blades 1
Clubs 1
Perception 1
Pistols 4
Unarmed Combat 4

Again, lots of skills, and you aren't very good at any of them.  You should focus on one or two areas and load those up instead of trying to get everything.  Being mediocre at a lot of skills will get you to accomplish almost nothing once you start playing.

For starters, drop Electronics altogether (Computer, Data Search, Hardware, Software).  This skill group is linked to LOG, and your LOG is 1.  Not to mention that you aren't a hacker, so there is really no point in trying to do this stuff on your own.  You'll save yourself 10 BP right here.

You are spending 42 BP on Automatics (specialized) and Pistols, but for 40 BP you could take the entire Firearms skill group at 4.  This would give you Automatics, Longarms, and Pistols all at 4 and you've still got 2 more BP to play with.

On a similar thread, you are spending 24 BP for Blades 1, Clubs 1, and Unarmed 4.  While these skills are good, it's best (in my opinion) to pick one and go with it.  You never want to get into a gun fight armed only with your fists.  Shadowrunners are fragile, and most fights are going to involve weapons.  If you really need these, take the Close Combat group at 2 and save yourself 2 BP in the process.

At this point, if you take my advice (which you don't have to - it's merely a suggestion), you are at 134 total BP spent on skills.  Yes, that is 4 more than I stated you were at currently.  But you still need to decide what type of Street Samurai you want to be.  You've got 10 BP tied up in Influence, 10 in Outdoors, and 10 in Stealth.  If you drop all 3 of these groups, that puts you at 104, or 26 less than you started with.  I suggest to pick one of these and drop all 30 BP in that one area.  This will make you effective at not only weapons (per Firearms and Close Combat), but also skilled in one specific area.  And your INT, CHA, and WIL scores are all 3, so any of these is good.

Just my 2 cents.

On specializations in creation, I think too many people advise against them, as when you actually think about it, they make sense to take since you're likely to take the specialization that fits your primary weapon that uses the skill in question, and when using that weapon you essentially get +2 dice for 2 BP rather than +1 die for 4 BP--sounds like a good value to me. On top of that, if the skill is at 6, a specialization or the Aptitude quality is your only option for improving the actual skill with the weapon--specialization being a much better deal, IMO.

[Henzington]

The whole idea is that the cost of getting or upgrading new skills is equal with BP at rating 4 and cheaper for rating 5 and 6 then it would be with karma as 1 BP equals 2 karma.  Its the same idea with getting - availability items at the start of play every BP is precious so save them wherever you can.

[Orvich]

Yeah, their point with specs wasn't that you shouldn't take them (As for the BP for spec-ing versus the BP for raising is favorible) but more that you should immediately take them with karma. They cost the same in karma (2), but raising skills with karma is DRASTICALLY more expensive than with bp. So you should always raise with BP, spec with karma.

[Strungest]

I have updated the original post with my new build.

Hey there Strungest, do you have an idea of what weapon types you want to use?
First, stats: You may attract your GM's ire by having a Logic of 1. 2-3 means "average" so you can get away with that. I'd reduce Charisma to 2 and bump Logic to 2. Also, you may want to remove the points for the Social Group and just put some in Ettiquette or perhaps Intimidation. No one expects the Street Sam to be diplomatic, just slightly well-behaved.
Second, the skills: Infiltration and Perception are usually required for just about any character. You need to be sneaky sometimes, and you need to be aware of things. Focus on one weapons skill and set that thing to 6. Pistols, Longarms, Automatics, or even Heavy Weapons.
Third, the 'ware: Aluminum lacing and wired reflexes aren't "visible" but any metal detector should light up your bone lacing. I'd consider removing that, since you have a Body of 8.
And wait, what? He's an Adept? Okay, remove the Cyberware totally for now. Adepts use Magic, which is lowered by 'ware. It can also be used to provide some of the same benefits of 'ware. You can combine both, but it requires some finesse.
Do you want to be an Adept Street Sam, a 'Wared Street Sam, or a mix of both?

AFAIK, an adept can do some of the things that cyberware/bioware can do, but you cant mix them. I really have no idea/preference if he should go for cyberware or the adept route. The 3+ initiative passes is important, but how he gets them is not. I shuffled the stats a bit, taking some out of strength due to probably not using it much. He is now slightly less retarded. I focused on Automatics, with 1 point in pistols as I think I will use one sometimes.

I have re-done the skills almost completely, grabbing what I think I understand as the "bare minimum". I think I will focus on stripping down extraneous items that aren't necessary, and once I have the "street sam" distilled to its base form, I can mix in some other things. I found http://jackpointers.blogspot.com/ , which has some interesting math with the shadowrun weapons. He does some funky assumptions about removing mods, but besides that it looks like a good resource. I am thinking something small, silent, concealable  and non-lethal for use when discreetness is required, and the something else that excels for "normal" combat. Any suggestions on a light/heavy/holdout/machine pistol and some kind of rifle that meet those requirements? modification/acessory suggestions are needed as well.

I also have no idea on this cyber thing. I have figured out that I can replace my goggles/earbuds with actual artificial eyes/ears. Should I? Also, wired reflexes(or an equivalent) is a must, but besides that I have almost no idea what would be good to use.

There is also a "martial art" tab, any recommendations? I also probably just need a list of "basic" items to take, like fake SINs and ammo and whatnot.

[Halancar]

AFAIK, an adept can do some of the things that cyberware/bioware can do, but you cant mix them. I really have no idea/preference if he should go for cyberware or the adept route.

You <i>can</i> put cyberware/bioware on your adept, but the first problem is that the reduction in Essence also reduces your Magic attribute... and therefore the number of powers you can have. So for instance if you put 2 points of Essence worth of cyberware on your adept, and put 40 BP into your magic attribute, you only get Magic 3, and 3 points of power instead of 5. Unless you know exactly what you are doing, this is not a good idea (if you do know exactly what you are doing, and which powers and cyberware to combine, it can be extremely powerful, but you are not there yet).

Also, some cyberware/bioware enhancements are not compatible with some adept powers, most notably anything that gets you extra IP

My advice: stay with the cyber for now

[Ethan]

Cyberware and Bioware can be used by any Magic-using character. There's a reduction in Essence and the Magic stat, which starts out at 1 when you choose the Adept quality and must be raised. So if you're an Adept and install any 'ware your Magic goes from 1 to 0 and you're no longer an Adept. So you have to raise that Magic stat. Any loss in Essence is added up then rounded up to the nearest whole number (so 0.1 is rounded to 1.0) and that's how much Magic you lose.

It gets complicated so it might be best to go with 'ware to start off with.

You may want to consider the Pacifist negative quality. It's rather odd for a Street Sam to be one.

Bioware uses less Essence though is costlier. Look at Muscle Toner 2, gives you a nice +2 to your Agility (did you have this before?) and is pretty cheap for what it does.

[Strungest]

Bioware uses less Essence though is costlier. Look at Muscle Toner 2, gives you a nice +2 to your Agility (did you have this before?) and is pretty cheap for what it does.

I did have it before, but I have removed all of the "im not sure about this 90+%" things so that suggestions are easier to give. Are muscle toner/entrancement a recommended buy?

[Ethan]

Yeah, Muscle Toner and Augmentation are good buys. Usually, you put your Agility and/or Strength at an odd number then those two at rating 2.

Another thing you could do is use the Restricted Gear quality and take Muscle Toner at Rating 4 (since going to 4 increases the availability to 20R).

[Henzington]

its worth it to get 2 items of restricted gear and grab second hand muscle toner and second hand suprathyroid gland.  Also the best ammo you can get is Ex-explosive and its always good to have a few stick-n-shock rounds if you need to not kill someone.

[JustADude]

its worth it to get 2 items of restricted gear and grab second hand muscle toner and second hand suprathyroid gland.  Also the best ammo you can get is Ex-explosive and its always good to have a few stick-n-shock rounds if you need to not kill someone.

Not really, no.

Suprathyroid, maybe, but you're better off getting 2nd-Hand Muscle Replacement 2 cyberware at CGen and upgrading to Muscle Toner 4 later. It's just not worth the Quality Points for Restricted Gear, given the in-game price tags.

[Strungest]

How much sense does it make to make the character with the karma gen system?