[TheNarrator]

I got 9 on this character I'm working on, with 3 IPs, would you say that is enough, or should I make sure to get that last dice?

Should be okay. 3 IPs is as good as you can expect to have. 9 is okay. You may not always go first, but you'll go often.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Joe "Potbelly" Nightwatchmann might have an Ini of 6-8 with 1 IniPass
You'd want to beat that
(and You'd rather raise the Passes than the Ini itself))

HougH!
Medicineman

People, remember that 3 is No Longer Standard Human; 2 is.

So 2 for attributes.  Potbelly is going to have 3 or 4, possibly up to 5 with 1 Initiative Pass.

[Noble Drake]

People, remember that 3 is No Longer Standard Human; 2 is.

Since when?

I only ask because everything from the attribute rating descriptions in SR4A to the contacts in the Runner's Companion seem to suggest, or clearly state, a "typical" rating of 3 and 2 being labeled "underdeveloped."

[Medicineman]

People, remember that 3 is No Longer Standard Human; 2 is.
Once in a while I hear this rumor too
but then I open the BBB and look for the Table which says Average Attribute is 3 
And when I mention this then there is often a long discussion  'bout this subject but it won't change the fact that 3 is still the Average for Human Attributes
(especially when you can raise the NATURAL Maximum to 8 or even 9 )

with an average Dance
Medicineman

[Ethan]

Maybe it's just the poor physical state of Sixth World humans?

Aiming for 10 with 2 IP is solid enough for most situations but 3 IP makes you a solid combat character. Fairly cheap if you get Wired Reflexes, enough that you can get Alphaware wires. Again, this is from a "team" perspective and that you're not the only combat guy in it.

[All4BigGuns]

People, remember that 3 is No Longer Standard Human; 2 is.

Since when?

I only ask because everything from the attribute rating descriptions in SR4A to the contacts in the Runner's Companion seem to suggest, or clearly state, a "typical" rating of 3 and 2 being labeled "underdeveloped."

I would think since people realized that 300 points wouldn't even get one an average human being in attributes.

[foolofsound]

I would think since people realized that 300 points wouldn't even get one an average human being in attributes.

What? Flat threes across 8 stats is only 160 points (first point is free), and an average human has no edge.

[Noble Drake]

I would think since people realized that 300 points wouldn't even get one an average human being in attributes.

I don't see what connection an alternate character creation suggestion has to the core assumption of what rating is meant to represent "average," or "typical," being by definition atypical.

[Reaver]

Inititative and IP is highly subjective to your GMs campaigns sadly.

If you have a GM the plays a "realistic" style I:8 IP:2 is going to give you the edge in most combats, until you hit the "special forces" mark... Then you are on par with them.

If he runs "high powered" or "über science fiction" games you want to shoot for I:10+ IP:3 to maintain your edge.

Talk to your GM and find out what style he is playing and go from there.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

People, remember that 3 is No Longer Standard Human; 2 is.

Since when?

I only ask because everything from the attribute rating descriptions in SR4A to the contacts in the Runner's Companion seem to suggest, or clearly state, a "typical" rating of 3 and 2 being labeled "underdeveloped."

I would think since people realized that 300 points wouldn't even get one an average human being in attributes.

What? Flat threes across 8 stats is only 160 points (first point is free), and an average human has no edge.

Since conversion, basically - when every stat you had was reduced by a third.  This is one of my beefs with the conversion of previous edition(s) to 4E mechanics - that sure, you're going along, you spent this whacked-out amount of karma to get a 9 in your Willpower, or a 10 in your QKN, or a 12 in your CHA, or that 15 in your STR - all depending on your metatype, of course - and then 4E comes along and says, "Okay, reduce all your stats by a third."  So 9 becomes 6, 6 becomes 4, and 3 becomes 2.  What used to be 'standard human' is now ... sub-standard human?  Why's this?

Well, this is because the hard-cap at 6, 7, or whatever the actual racial maximum was, as modified by Edges and genework.  Sure, you could get an Elf with a 10 (or even a 15!) in Agility if you have the extreme combination of Exceptional Attribute, Metagenetic Improvement, and Genetic Optimization, but those are upping the limit on your Racial Max - your particular 6 becomes a 9 instead.  You can go above that hard-limit Racial Max (to 1.5 times its rating) with enhancements - but only with Enhancements.  And when you boil it all down, 3 became 2.

Essentially the same thing was done with skills.  Reduce your skills by lots; tough luck for you if you bought more than one thing up high, because it Now Sucks To Be You, cut everything but one down to 6.

The fluff was left alone - 'normal human' is still stated to be a 3.  But if you were a normal human before and tried to transition over ... you weren't a normal human after, you were sub-par.

So yeah - I guess it boils down to that 'for me', 4E normal human is a 2, Arnold in the movies has a 5 or a 6 in STR.

By the by, foolofsound, consider what you just said - all 3s is 180 points.  You have to spend almost half your point total just to be average.

[foolofsound]

By the by, foolofsound, consider what you just said - all 3s is 180 points.  You have to spend almost half your point total just to be average.

No. It's 160 points. Normal humans have 8 stats (starts at 1, 10 points per increase, 8x20=160). No Magic, Resonance, or Edge for normal people. How many skills, how much equipment, and how many contacts do you really think an average joe has? Your standard wageslave probably has no more than 10-20 points worth of personal assets, one or two skill groups at rating three, MAYBE four, a few skills at 1, a few (free) knowledge skills, and a few contacts; all of this is very much possible in 300 points. That's the thing about average people. They aren't special.

[All4BigGuns]

By the by, foolofsound, consider what you just said - all 3s is 180 points.  You have to spend almost half your point total just to be average.

No. It's 160 points. Normal humans have 8 stats (starts at 1, 10 points per increase, 8x20=160). No Magic, Resonance, or Edge for normal people. How many skills, how much equipment, and how many contacts do you really think an average joe has? Your standard wageslave probably has no more than 10-20 points worth of personal assets, one or two skill groups at rating three, MAYBE four, a few skills at 1, a few (free) knowledge skills, and a few contacts; all of this is very much possible in 300 points. That's the thing about average people. They aren't special.

That's still over the attribute point limit for 300 points (half of 300 is 150, leaving that as 10 points over the limit).

By the by, foolofsound, consider what you just said - all 3s is 180 points.  You have to spend almost half your point total just to be average.

This is why I think 400 BP should not be base points for creating a character. 500 or 550 would be far better due to this.


Going back to the question of Initiative, as I said, I very rarely go so far as to have 3 initiative passes, and I haven't had a problem except for when opponents are blowing Edge on Initiative and Edge on attacks, followed by a critical glitch on Soak on my part (with 20+ dice to roll to do so).

[foolofsound]

This is why I think 400 BP should not be base points for creating a character. 500 or 550 would be far better due to this.

500 points allows for characters to feel more well-rounded, certainly. In my experience with 500 point games, characters aren't substantially more powerful at their core role, but it does allow them to pick up a secondary role. I do imagine that, in a 300 point game, the attribute spending cap would be loosened, since an average person is likely to have substantially lower and fewer skills, less important contacts, and fewer assets than a shadowrunner, while their stats would probably not be enormously worse.

On the subject of initiative, it really depends heavily on your GM. If he's using the sample grunts from SR4A as a baseline, 2 IP and 9 Init should be plenty. If he's obeying the power level implied by the fluff, you probably want 3IP and 12+ init, since your average enforcer or guard will have 2 IP and 8-10 Init, either from drugs or augmentations. Team composition can also have an impact on required passes. If your team in combat light, you probably want to make sure your Init is a little higher and possibly take another pass. If your team is combat heavy, you can relax on both a little.

[Glyph]

Three initiative passes is good for more than offense.  With an "extra" pass against enemies with less initiative passes, you can use one of them to go on full defense as an interrupt action, without sacrificing too much offense.  Two initiative passes is okay, but it isn't comfortably far enough ahead of bog-standard grunts - they are only the expenditure of an Edge point or a relatively cheap dose of a combat drug away from matching you.

On Attributes: a 3 is still considered "average", but looking at the actual book stats of lower-end mooks and contacts shows that a lot of them tend to average out lower than that across their Attributes.  For typical NPCs, I would give things like blue collar workers or street punks 3's in physical Attributes and 2's in mental Attributes, and do it the other way around for things like secretaries or telecommuters.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

By the by, foolofsound, consider what you just said - all 3s is 180 points.  You have to spend almost half your point total just to be average.

No. It's 160 points. Normal humans have 8 stats (starts at 1, 10 points per increase, 8x20=160). No Magic, Resonance, or Edge for normal people. How many skills, how much equipment, and how many contacts do you really think an average joe has? Your standard wageslave probably has no more than 10-20 points worth of personal assets, one or two skill groups at rating three, MAYBE four, a few skills at 1, a few (free) knowledge skills, and a few contacts; all of this is very much possible in 300 points. That's the thing about average people. They aren't special.

My apologies, I wasn't keeping track, and misread your post.  Yes, 160 = Normal Human.  Average Joe / Jane has at least one moneymaking skill at 2-3, one that is usually considered an Active, not a Knowledge, skill.  For his or her job, there's another two or three knowledges necessary just for the job; additional Active skills that a person will pick up, that can be picked up, in two hours, Rating 1.  Guy who owns a pistol, shoots off a clip once a month?  There's a 1.  Maybe even a 2.

Glyph, this goes for you too, so - the basic Corporate Security officer, the gruntiest of grunts, is a 268 BP character - with 160 points in attributes, average across the board.  So sure, depending on your table a shadowrunner is supposed to be either barely better, or a lot better, or else be able to kick his ass while hopping on foot, blindfolded, and with one arm wrenched out of joint by Bubba the Troll.  No, I don't really go for #3, but considering that getting enough attribute points to make a difference is going to cost you another hundred points, and enough skills to really make a difference may cost you another forty ...

Yes, I have issue with 400 BP.  Or rather, I have issue with 3 being human average in attributes.