[Noble Drake]

I get your point when it comes to "i was average in 3rd edition... so I'm still average in 4th, right?" types of conversion... I can't agree that converting a (presumably) experienced character from one edition to the next should have any bearing (direct or otherwise) on what is considered "average" by the new rule set.

If you had an experienced 3e character that still had a 3 in an attribute, you must not really have cared about that attribute nor used it all that much... so what's the problem with putting it at a 2? Especially when considering the difference in rules - 3 Quickness, 6 pistols skill 3e character? If I remember my rules right, he rolls 6 dice to shoot at something... convert him to 4e and you have a 2 Agility, 4 Pistols character, who rolls 6 dice to shoot at something.

That sounds basically the same to me.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

... who rolls 6 dice to shoot at something.

That sounds basically the same to me.

Meanwhile, Potbelly Joe the security guard goes from two dice (Firearms 2) to five - Firearms 2 and Agility 3, because hey, 3 is average.  Instead of being Well-Trained Shadowrunner (Firearms 6!) against barely-trained Potbelly Joe (Firearms 2), it's now almost neck-and-neck.  So no, it's not the same.  You're looking at a single set of isolated numbers.  I'm looking at how those numbers fit in and compare to the rest of the universe as defined.

With Karma, you could pump your No Implant No Magic plain human detective with all those contacts up to a 9 attribute in anything; that was absolute max unless you got all special on one particular attribute.  Now it's six; a 1/3 reduction.  All I really want - well, wish for, because we're well past the point where this sort of thing could be adjusted - is a recognition that when 'max' went down by a third, 'norm' went down by a third as well.

2 is normal human; 4 is the top end of what you're likely to find short of someone particularly driven in an area.  6 is the max most humans can go without having those aforementioned 'special gifts' and/or modifications.  Implants and magic can bring you to that max * 1.5, sure, but that's costly to the common man - I mean, even a rating 1 Encephalon is three month's pay for a middle-lifestyle sort of person.

Yes, fluff and internal definitions continue to state 3 is average human, and eventually at least my brain will catch up with that.  I guess I just think that it takes something away from the game and downplays the Rule of Cool, as it were.

[foolofsound]

Meanwhile, Potbelly Joe the security guard goes from two dice (Firearms 2) to five - Firearms 2 and Agility 3, because hey, 3 is average.  Instead of being Well-Trained Shadowrunner (Firearms 6!) against barely-trained Potbelly Joe (Firearms 2), it's now almost neck-and-neck.  So no, it's not the same.  You're looking at a single set of isolated numbers.  I'm looking at how those numbers fit in and compare to the rest of the universe as defined.

You can't just look at Attribute and Skill dice. Shadowrun is a transhumanist setting; you need to remember that runners are better equipped and more heavily cybered/magicked up than the "average" person. It's a combination of these factors that allow them to outclass Potbelly Joe.

Let's look at an "average" runner versus an "average" security guard. The guard has 6 dice (let's assume his company sprung for a laser sight), versus the runner's 5 Reaction. Assuming the runner does not use his Edge (which the guard should not have), does not go on full defense (which, if since he has more initiative passes, he should), and is not running, the guard has about a 55% chance to hit on the first shot, 50% on the second. This drops to 40%/38% if the runner goes on full defense. Meanwhile, the runner fires back with his smartlinked gun, 5 Agility,  4 Firearms, and a Specialty. Joe can't go on full defense, is not running, and cannot spend Edge. This means that the runner has a 81% chance to hit on both shots (of course he has Recoil Comp), and then has another pass to wail on him.

And remember, this is versus a combat competent, not combat focused, runner.

Another thing to remember is that runners aren't really action heroes. They are skilled, hardened criminals with a noticeable amount of luck (Edge), but they aren't going to charge an army and survive; they aren't generally going to charge a squad and survive. Nobody is that skilled outside of action movies.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

So your argument is 'well, there's all the rest of the background stuff too' - which applies to both 3E and 4E, so in regards to background stuff, there's no change.  The change lies in the definition of what's normal human.  The change lies in the fact that top-notch shadowrunner - the guy who pumped his Karma into a 9 in his pistols, a +4 in his Ares Predator II, Smartlink-II, recoil comp, all the works on the gun plus his most excellent combat pool and Wired-I for some good reflexes, is now half as good as he used to be in comparison to Potbelly Joe.  Can he still wax Potbelly in a heartbeat?  Sure, Potbelly and probably one, maybe two of his friends.  Used to be, though, he could wax four, maybe six of them without breaking stride, he was that good.

Anyhow.  No, I understand where you're coming from.  I don't think you have quite the same visceral feeling about it, that's all.