[FuelDrop]

This is why grenade launchers are frowned upon, which in turn is why flash-bangs are so handy.

Flash-bangs are nice, but for real shock and awe you can't really go past gecko white phosphorus. The gift that keeps on giving!

[Redmercury]

This is why grenade launchers are frowned upon, which in turn is why flash-bangs are so handy.

Flash-bangs are nice, but for real shock and awe you can't really go past gecko white phosphorus. The gift that keeps on giving!

Those are vicious, but they're pricey and in a corporate office collateral damage is a given. Unless they have a damn good extinguishing system, in which case the secondary effects would be nullified. Meanwhile flash-bangs have a non-degrading 10 meter radius, cost only 30n, and you don't have to worry about killing anyone you shouldn't be killing in the blast radius. Good for hostage situations and public extractions, wagemages too! Especially since you don't have to give him LOS on you to hit him.

[JustADude]

This is why grenade launchers are frowned upon, which in turn is why flash-bangs are so handy.

Flash-bangs are nice, but for real shock and awe you can't really go past gecko white phosphorus. The gift that keeps on giving!

Those are vicious, but they're pricey and in a corporate office collateral damage is a given. Unless they have a damn good extinguishing system, in which case the secondary effects would be nullified. Meanwhile flash-bangs have a non-degrading 10 meter radius, cost only 30n, and you don't have to worry about killing anyone you shouldn't be killing in the blast radius. Good for hostage situations and public extractions, wagemages too! Especially since you don't have to give him LOS on you to hit him.

And just remember, you can fire Flash-bangs from a grenade launcher.

And, since the MGL-6 is pistol sized, that gives you a nice way to say "hello" even in low-profile situations.

[The_Gun_Nut]

I was going to put a long post here regarding identifying the mage from a group of schmoos, but this thread has moved on so much (and great posts as to why the mage wouldn't be in harms way have been posted) that it seems redundant.  I will post this tidbit regarding the wimpy/geeky mage stereotype in the Shadowrun setting vs. the standard trope:

You don't hire Ph. D's to change your car's oil, why would you hire one to get shot at?

[Twitchy D]

You don't hire Ph. D's to change your car's oil, why would you hire one to get shot at?

Because being a regestered mage is like getting a "set people on fire with your mind" diploma, in a world where they say "Now dont you go setting people on fire, now!" when you leave college, yet filled with people will pay you extremely good money to set people on fire for them. Actually using your powers illegaly when you first got them, then being unable to find legal work after their crimes are discovered and the punishment complete is a possible reason why some mages are Shadowrunning. Some mages even prefer to be on the wrong side, dispite having enough talent to get them in the big leagues legitamately.

[Zilfer]

You'll need to be in a good place if your "combat casting" isn't going to get noticed in the reports. I'm sure hooking up with triple A's helps keep your 'record clean'. xD

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

And being magical doesn't necessarily make you smart.  You hire people for what they do - legbreakers to break legs, scientists to science.  You aren't going to put a Ph.D. in Thaumaturgy into security; you won't put a guy recruited from the street into spell research.

[foolofsound]

And being magical doesn't necessarily make you smart.  You hire people for what they do - legbreakers to break legs, scientists to science.  You aren't going to put a Ph.D. in Thaumaturgy into security; you won't put a guy recruited from the street into spell research.

Right, but equally you wouldn't want to risk your comparatively rare and expensive mages on frontline combat (unless, that is in fact their specialty). That's what trolls and miniguns are for.

[Unahim]

I feel this falls somewhat within the first rule of Shadowrunning, being "If anything would make Shadowrunners or Shadowrunning impossible or unfeasible, ignore it." Only here it is "If anything would make regular climatic battles against enemy mages unfeasible, ignore it."

[beowulf_of_wa]

in others words: don't let reality intrude on your ShadowRun.

[Redmercury]

Just geek the caster before they have the chance, and no one has to think about what they'd do in that situation.

[The_Gun_Nut]

If you are tossing "realism" out the window, just have your shadowrunners teleport in, steal the thing, and kill everyone within a 3 block radius with one spell with zero drain.  Oh, and let them wear Ghostwalker's skull as a hat while doing it.

There is "realism" (which isn't strictly the correct word choice, here) and there is "plausiblility" (which IS the word we are looking for, here).  The world of Shadowrun works because of the latter, people everywhere are doing what would be plausibe, I.E. what is appropriate and makes sense for the context of their world (the Shadowrun setting).

Is it plausible that a corp would pick someone up off the street (or from a corp enclave, or what have you), spend hundreds of thousands if not millions of nuyen and 8 to 10 years of training on someone they expect to, conceiveably, take a bullet as part of their job?  Does that make sense?  Is it plausible?

Or does it make more sense to have someone with 6 to 12 months of specialized training, worth only tens of thousands, maybe 100,000 nuyen, give them the exact same gear as every other grunt out there so that they don't get singled out and killed before doing their job, and then put them in a position to best aid the security forces posted at a facility, even if that position is in a secure room summoning spirits and siccing them on the opposition and/or spying on them?  (Sorry, long sentance.)

Setting up the opposition like a standard fantasy RPG style adventure is fine for some groups.  It is fun for a while, and some groups never leave that style of play.  It's a little too Pink Mohawk for me, and feels like lazy writing.  I much prefer a game set up plausibly and organically, based upon what would actually work IRL (assuming magic and cyber and what-all).

There common sense rules the day, and I can expect my actions, and the actions of the opposition, to follow simple rules and chains of logic, even if they are not immediately evident.  It allows me to put more faith in the GM that things will work the way they should, and gives me deeper immersion due to greater versimilitude.

While this is simply opinion on my part, I feel Shadowrun (and RPGs in general) works much better in longer campaigns this way.

[Ethan]

Except that it does make sense because Mages can do things others can't. It makes sense to have magical security, and the mage can still summon Spirits. Sure, you won't be protecting every warehouse with one. But in a world full of magical threats it is necessary to have some magical defense.

Have you ever played a Mage fighting against corpsec? I mean, a full-on no holds-barred Magician with Mind Control spells and a Bound Spirit? It's not even remotely fair.

So no, there isn't a wagemage security guard at the Stuffer Shack. Or an office building. But certainly in important areas. Also, not all Magicians are Hermetics, there are corp shaman out there as well, and all the other traditions. Some require far less training.

[foolofsound]

In basic Shadowrun, it doesn't make sense for mages to agree to contracts that requires them to be frontline fighters, unless, of course, the corp is paying them substantially more. It also means that there are generally only going to be real security mages in high security facilities. Low end buildings simply won't have astral security (or may have a weak ward), while mid-range buildings will likely have watchers and a more powerful ward, and MAYBE a low-end security mage.

Remember that skilled security mages are in enough demand to command fairly high wages. Corpsec isn't going to stick them places where that wage isn't worth it.

That's why I chose to edit the setting in my campaign, to make Awakening much more common. I would rather change the setting to make more sense (make it so corps can easily replace injured mages) than simply ignore the implications of skilled mages being very rare.

[Zilfer]

^Even a mage without skill is dangerous, it's why awakened have to register themselves as awakened on their sins. Otherwise i believe you can get into trouble just for not registering that.