[foolofsound]

^Even a mage without skill is dangerous, it's why awakened have to register themselves as awakened on their sins. Otherwise i believe you can get into trouble just for not registering that.

Depends on what you call unskilled. I call unskilled Magic < 4 and Spellcasting < 3 with no initiation, no foci, and average drain resistance. Magic is just an attribute like anything else; most people (even most mages) don't have higher than a 3 or 4 base magic.

That means that an unskilled mage has 7 casting dice, max Force of 6, and 6 Drain resistance dice. Not particularly dangerous to most runners; more likely to fry himself than stop anyone.

Yes, mages have to register. You also have to register your handgun. Both are dangerous, but untrained mages are hardly "special case" dangerous.

[WellsIDidIt]

7 casting dice vs. the average 3 body or willpower is still quite dangerous. Especially from a public viewpoint.

A gun shoots you,, and kill or knocks you out. Mages can torture you, interrogate you, fry you, electrocute you, turn your skin to goo, rape you, make you rape someone else, force you to commit suicide, put thoughts in your head, read your thoughts, look like you, look like your significant other, etc.

It's the vast amount of things the mages can do that makes them "special case" dangerous to the public. Which is scarier, getting shot and killed, or being forced to take a backride seat as you murder and rape your wife and kids then take a swan dive out the fifth floor?

In basic Shadowrun, it doesn't make sense for mages to agree to contracts that requires them to be frontline fighters, unless, of course, the corp is paying them substantially more.

Depends on the mage doesn't it? They're people too, and they have to take the jobs available. Sure, Mr. Superace that's excelled as his job for the past 5-10 won't be taking a job in the danger zone, but what about Mr. Crappypants that's already botched two high paying jobs and is having trouble finding work that will hire him.

Just because the Mages are rare and special does not mean they have a magical free pass. They're normal people with an abnormal skill, they've got outside lives, work habbits, work ethics, and pasts. Any number of things can be a reason they're working as Joe Mage Security at the Break In Gallery.

Sure, the Mage probably isn't going to be walking patrols with the other guy. It makes more sense to put him somewhere high with a good view of the grounds, or preferably in a security room that has a fiber optic web to get views of the whole compound/grounds so he can cast from the safety of a locked sealed room.

[foolofsound]

A gun shoots you,, and kill or knocks you out. Mages can torture you, interrogate you, fry you, electrocute you, turn your skin to goo, rape you, make you rape someone else, force you to commit suicide, put thoughts in your head, read your thoughts, look like you, look like your significant other, etc.

All of those circumstances can be replicated with Restricted/Forbidden (or not) technology, except for though reading/control. Said 7 die mage will, on average, be able to maintain his Force 6 mental manipulation on a Will 3 human for about 30 seconds. In the mean time, he has just had to eat 3 Physical drain. As to thought reading? Gamma-Scopolamine is called truth serum for a reason.

And I thought that mages couldn't force you to directly harm yourself with Control Thoughts... I can't find a passage that says to though.

Sure, the Mage probably isn't going to be walking patrols with the other guy. It makes more sense to put him somewhere high with a good view of the grounds, or preferably in a security room that has a fiber optic web to get views of the whole compound/grounds so he can cast from the safety of a locked sealed room.

So we agree then. The mage is unlikely to be joining the security forces in attacking the runners head on, unless he is specifically trained to do so.

[WellsIDidIt]

So we agree then. The mage is unlikely to be joining the security forces in attacking the runners head on, unless he is specifically trained to do so.

He can drop a stun nuke from anywhere with LoS and in a secure location he's less likely to be at the runners mercy than if he botches a drain check, so I see no reason for him to ever be patrolling with other security members unless there is no other viable route for him to do his job.

I can only see them being in a squad formation if their training is primarily touch based spells.

And I thought that mages couldn't force you to directly harm yourself with Control Thoughts... I can't find a passage that says to though.

In Shadowrun you can force them to do anything you want with Control Thoughts/Control Actions. They are, for all intents and purposes, a true meat puppet if you get control of them.

All of those circumstances can be replicated with Restricted/Forbidden (or not) technology, except for though reading/control. Said 7 die mage will, on average, be able to maintain his Force 6 mental manipulation on a Will 3 human for about 30 seconds. In the mean time, he has just had to eat 3 Physical drain. As to thought reading? Gamma-Scopolamine is called truth serum for a reason.

To a degree they can be replaced, but the mage can do it with his mind, no obvious accessories required. The average human maxes out at -3 and -3 for pain penalties. What can a mage achieve with things like agony, worst case scenario it's -3, -3, and -1, just a little bit worse than a normal torturer because they can use everything normal and then magic.

Sure, you've got truth serum for finding the truth, but with mind probe you can potentially get things that the target doesn't even realize they know but have stored subconciously.

Manipulation, well manipulate him to do it, and while he's doing it, alter his memory so that he thinks he wants to do it. Then put his memory back after he's done it so that he knows he didn't ever ever want to. And alter memory lasts what? Force months.

There are truly massive amounts of things that mages can do that are unreplicated by technology. You never know who they are, or what they'll do. You can't even really trust that your friends/family aren't one (whether naturally or because one has masked himself like them).

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

I admit that I find it somewhat amusing that initation is considered so utterly vital.  I have to admit it'd be nice to get some formal statistics on the Awakened - percentage of the population, percentage active/capable (as compared to having only a hint of power), and how many of those have undergone even one grade of Initiation ...

[Black]

I admit that I find it somewhat amusing that initation is considered so utterly vital.  I have to admit it'd be nice to get some formal statistics on the Awakened - percentage of the population, percentage active/capable (as compared to having only a hint of power), and how many of those have undergone even one grade of Initiation ...

I've always consider initiation to be fairly rare for the most part, but maybe thats a hang over from earlier editions were initiation was not in the core rule book and involved astral quests etc.  Always seemed like a big deal to me.

But it would make sense for corp mages to form circles and help each other initiate...  but really only one or two levels at best.

[foolofsound]

I don't really consider mages a "real" member of their tradition until they've taken their first initiation. The idea of initiation is that you delve into the practice of your tradition; if you haven't initiated, you're just a trainee/wannabe.

I consider mages with 3+ initiation to be considered masters and mages with 6+ initiation (even without Magic increases) to be considered more-or-less archmagi, leaders of societies of lesser mages.

[WellsIDidIt]

I consider mages with 4-6 magic at the unskilled/amateur range. Anything less than that, I pass off to burnout before starting. Then again, I'm still use to 5 or 6 being a guarantee for most starting mages.

The real place where skill starts to show up is initiation and spellcasting ratings. Initiation affects metamagics which tend to be a huge deal from my experience. Spellcasting shows their actual skill with using their magic, but the magic attribute is just their natural raw ability.

[Redmercury]

I look at magic a little differently than both of the above posts. First of all real members of traditions don't even have to be awakened. Is an unawakened Buddhist or Christian priest a wannabe?

And again, with the immediate above post. I personally consider initiation to be comparable to a path to enlightenment. A long road that even many skilled users don't reach. When you ignore the fact that with initiation magic has no cap, magic is like any other attribute. 6 magic and you're damn gifted, above that and you start getting into a different league.

[foolofsound]

I look at magic a little differently than both of the above posts. First of all real members of traditions don't even have to be awakened. Is an unawakened Buddhist or Christian priest a wannabe?

You are fundamentally misunderstanding what the religious traditions mean. A Christian priest and a Christian theugre are different (one preaches, the other does magic), someone can be both, a lack of training in one does not inhibit the other. All of the faiths are similar; only Awakened members of the faith are actually part of that faith's mystic tradition, in addition to the faith itself.

Think of it this way, a Jewish rabbi is going to have Knowledge skills about his faith, and probably have some Social skills, to better be a religious leader. He may even understand some of the Kabbalah (aka, has an Arcana score). A true Kabbalistic scholar, on the other hand, is Awakened, and initiates as he pursues the greater mysteries of his faith's esoteric knowledge.


I agree with you on Magic scores; a Magic score of 6-7 is quite gifted (I would say no more than 1 in 10 Awakened reach this level). You can be a powerful mage without having even initiated, or initiated only once. You can't be a leader of a mystic society based solely on being powerful however (in most societies at least); you must also be a master of the tradition it teaches.

[The_Gun_Nut]

My point still stands:  Ph'D's aren't manning the front lines of corpsec.  It doesn't require 8 to 10 years of schooling to know when and how to blast someone.  What you will have is a highly trained specialist with just enough to make her/him a formidible addition to the team.

Please pay special attention to and note that last word.  TEAM.  The mage isn't by himself any more than any single corpsec member is by themselves.  This is why the mage doesn't need dozens of dice in his pool to be effective.  Heck, 4 magic and 4 in the various magical skills makes him a significant enough threat contribution to the corpsec team breathing down your throat.  With all the bullets, small spirits and spells being slung at the shadowrunners, corpsec's disadvantage in skill is more than made up for through sheer numbers and firepower.

Remember, if the team has alerted corpsec and is having to fight its way in or out, they have failed.

[Redmercury]

Wow this topic ran away from itself. Anyhoo, as far as cost effective ways to defeat magic, specifically spirits, electricity is your friend. Tasers and stick and shot. White phosphorous grenades are expensive but good for cutting off that mage's escape route at the same time. Flamethrowers are a nice touch as well, especially if you're going up against a water spirit, ironically.

[JustADude]

Wow this topic ran away from itself. Anyhoo, as far as cost effective ways to defeat magic, specifically spirits, electricity is your friend. Tasers and stick and shot. White phosphorous grenades are expensive but good for cutting off that mage's escape route at the same time. Flamethrowers are a nice touch as well, especially if you're going up against a water spirit, ironically.

Willie Pete is one destructive SoB, though. The stuff is great for taking out just about anything. Heck, use burst-fire and even tanks are gonna be "feeling the burn."

[Mirikon]

Oh yeah. You do NOT want to mess with WP. That stuff is harder to put out than Napalm. Get some on you, you're on fire. Dive in the water, the fire goes out, until you get back out of the water and it LIGHTS ON FIRE AGAIN!

[Redmercury]

That would be one mean runner to burn security to death like that. Even if it doesn't burn a tank to dust, which I don't doubt, it'll incapacitate the occupants unless they have the cabin sealed off and pumping fresh oxygen through.