[WarriorPoet1274]

Let's you take a heavy pistol and chose the weapon mode Fire Selection Change and make it Full Auto what skill do you use when using that weapon?

[DWC]

Pistols.  Changing the Fire Mode doesn't change the weapon class.  It's stupid.  Making a pistol automatic should make it a machine pistol or submachinegun since that's all a machine pistol or submachinegun is, but Shadowrun doesn't work that way.

[JustADude]

Pistols.  Changing the Fire Mode doesn't change the weapon class.  It's stupid.  Making a pistol automatic should make it a machine pistol or submachinegun since that's all a machine pistol or submachinegun is, but Shadowrun doesn't work that way.

This. So very, very this.

There's even a SA-Only Battle Rifle that still uses Automatics. Without BF it is quite literally a Hunting Rifle.

[Mäx]

There's even a SA-Only Battle Rifle that still uses Automatics. Without BF it is quite literally a Hunting Rifle.

Well firing all of the other BR:s in SA mode still uses Automatics, so it makes sense in the system.

[foolofsound]

Well firing all of the other BR:s in SA mode still uses Automatics, so it makes sense in the system.

Well, not sense, but at least it's consistent.

I kinda wish Automatics wasn't such a catchall firearms skill, though. Need a pistol? It covers that. Need a full auto weapon? Covers it. Need a long distance/precision weapon? Battle Rifles can cover it. Only thing it can't do is heavy weapons.

[JustADude]

Well firing all of the other BR:s in SA mode still uses Automatics, so it makes sense in the system.

Well, not sense, but at least it's consistent.

I kinda wish Automatics wasn't such a catchall firearms skill, though. Need a pistol? It covers that. Need a full auto weapon? Covers it. Need a long distance/precision weapon? Battle Rifles can cover it. Only thing it can't do is heavy weapons.

Ayup. That's why I endorse a HR to get rid of Automatics; it's not a real "thing." The same techniques used to shoot a bolt-action Remington accurately will work just fine when shooting an AR-15, as will the skills for shooting a Glock 17 vs a Glock 18.

Fold Machine Pistols into Pistols and everything else goes into Longarms. Then, to fill out Firearms, you split Heavy Weapons into HW and "Launchers," with the new, stripped-down version of Heavy Weapons replacing Automatics in the Firearms Group. That simple.

[foolofsound]

Ayup. That's why I endorse a HR to get rid of Automatics; it's not a real "thing." The same techniques used to shoot a bolt-action Remington accurately will work just fine when shooting an AR-15, as will the skills for shooting a Glock 17 vs a Glock 18.

Fold Machine Pistols into Pistols and everything else goes into Longarms. Then, to fill out Firearms, you split Heavy Weapons into HW and "Launchers," with the new, stripped-down version of Heavy Weapons replacing Automatics in the Firearms Group. That simple.

Of course, the stripped down Heavy Weapons skill (aka Machine Guns and Assault Cannons) wouldn't be particularly useful, since Battle Rifles are pretty much beat out Machine Guns in every way, and Sniper Rifles can be almost as good as Assault Cannons. I still like the idea, though.

[All4BigGuns]

Well firing all of the other BR:s in SA mode still uses Automatics, so it makes sense in the system.

Well, not sense, but at least it's consistent.

I kinda wish Automatics wasn't such a catchall firearms skill, though. Need a pistol? It covers that. Need a full auto weapon? Covers it. Need a long distance/precision weapon? Battle Rifles can cover it. Only thing it can't do is heavy weapons.

Ayup. That's why I endorse a HR to get rid of Automatics; it's not a real "thing." The same techniques used to shoot a bolt-action Remington accurately will work just fine when shooting an AR-15, as will the skills for shooting a Glock 17 vs a Glock 18.

Fold Machine Pistols into Pistols and everything else goes into Longarms. Then, to fill out Firearms, you split Heavy Weapons into HW and "Launchers," with the new, stripped-down version of Heavy Weapons replacing Automatics in the Firearms Group. That simple.

I'm still not sure why they changed it to the current firearm skill list from what they were before. (Pistols, Rifles, SMGs and Heavy Weapons being what they were in SR3.) Heck, leaving those as they were and just putting all four into the Firearms group might have prevented the crap that I hear people saying about the group being supposedly worthless.

[WellsIDidIt]

I'm still not sure why they changed it to the current firearm skill list from what they were before. (Pistols, Rifles, SMGs and Heavy Weapons being what they were in SR3.) Heck, leaving those as they were and just putting all four into the Firearms group might have prevented the crap that I hear people saying about the group being supposedly worthless.

SR3 had a lot more than that. You had to pick up a different skill for most things. It was: Pistols, SMGs, Rifles, Assault Rifles, Shotguns, Heavy Weapons, and Launch Weapons.

Personally I say just fold Machine Pistols and SMGs into the Pistols class, fold Assault Rifles and Battle Rifles into the Longarms class, put Heavy Weapons and Gunnery into the Firearms skill group and call it a day.

[Noble Drake]

I don't actually get why they changed it from 2nd edition where it was just Firearms and Gunnery, and you could concetrate/specialize down from their to be more specific.

It doesn't seem to be much of a real difference to me if a character has Firearms 4 and only ever uses his trusty FN HAR even though he could pick up a pistol just as easily if he needed to, and a character that has Automatics (or Assault Rifles) 4 and no other skills in the group so he would only pick up a pistol if he really needed to.

The real difference: One let's you save your own bacon by dealing with what's available in a way I like to call "realistic enough" - the other says "you lose because you didn't put your points where the plot arbitrarily told you you needed them."

[Unahim]

I don't actually get why they changed it from 2nd edition where it was just Firearms and Gunnery, and you could concetrate/specialize down from their to be more specific.

It doesn't seem to be much of a real difference to me if a character has Firearms 4 and only ever uses his trusty FN HAR even though he could pick up a pistol just as easily if he needed to, and a character that has Automatics (or Assault Rifles) 4 and no other skills in the group so he would only pick up a pistol if he really needed to.

The real difference: One let's you save your own bacon by dealing with what's available in a way I like to call "realistic enough" - the other says "you lose because you didn't put your points where the plot arbitrarily told you you needed them."

It's a trade-off the player consciously made, though. If a character has a physical track of 11 and a stun track of 10, and then he gets hit with 10 stun is also him going down because of a choice of where to put his points. Same can be said about someone who took low-pain tolerance, causing him to just get one extra -1 during that fire fight, which just happens to cause him to fail something, leading to his doom.

Ultimately, the entire character building process builds down to little choices that could, at some point "arbitrarily" lead to your demise. I'd say your example is even less arbitrary, as many precautions can be taken to make sure you don't end up in that situation.

[Noble Drake]

Ultimately, the entire character building process builds down to little choices that could, at some point "arbitrarily" lead to your demise. I'd say your example is even less arbitrary, as many precautions can be taken to make sure you don't end up in that situation.

Well, yes... I wasn't meaning to say that game rules aren't always arbitrary in their execution - I was meaning that it is an arbitrary distinction to have set the granularity of what firearms you can and cannot accurately aim so high.

In the real world I know plenty of folks that have fired off plenty of different sorts of guns, some of which are even military trained. What I don't know - and have never heard of either in real life nor in any fiction like Shadowrun is meant to evoke - is anyone that has the same likelyhood of getting a bullseye at a target range with one type of firearm (rifle) and missing the target entirely with another type (pistol).

Real life guns are similar in usage and very easy to learn to use proficiently - Shadowrun guns are all apparently completely alien in design, and that's arbitrary to a level that just isn't necessary for anything.

[foolofsound]

Real life guns are similar in usage and very easy to learn to use proficiently

That... isn't quite true. If you've ever fired a gun at a target even 20-30 yards away, you would notice that it isn't as easy as you think to fire accurately without a substantial amount of practice. In practice, semi-automatic pistols and rifles are somewhat similar, but shotguns (using buck/birdshot) use a different technique entirely, as do burst/automatic weapons (at least in my limited experience with them). Not to mention that taking the time to carefully line up a shot is very different from trying to shoot from the hip...

[Noble Drake]

Real life guns are similar in usage and very easy to learn to use proficiently

That... isn't quite true. If you've ever fired a gun at a target even 20-30 yards away, you would notice that it isn't as easy as you think to fire accurately without a substantial amount of practice. In practice, semi-automatic pistols and rifles are somewhat similar, but shotguns (using buck/birdshot) use a different technique entirely, as do burst/automatic weapons (at least in my limited experience with them). Not to mention that taking the time to carefully line up a shot is very different from trying to shoot from the hip...

Maybe we'll have to chalk it up to my backwoods upbringing, but no - lining up a shot on an immobile target within effective range is damn near the level of difficulty I would declare "child's play". Heck, anecdotally speaking it was genuinely child's play when I first fire a shotgun at age 8 and hit my target (a spent shotgun shell 15 yards away) despite falling on my rear from not holding the shotgun quite right and also the first time I fired a revolver at some soda cans about 15 yards away and only missed on the first shot.

As for "use a different technique entirely" I have to completely disagree. You can, and should, be creating a solid eye-line aim no matter the type of firearm you are using - what's different is getting used to using a scope rather than using the sights built into the top of the weapon. The fact that a lot of people choose to shoot from the hip is just a lot of people choosing to completely ruin their own accuracy for no reason... just like a lot of real world thugs and thug wannabes started copying film and tv by holding their pistol sideways.

[Mirikon]

Maybe, but there's something just damn satisfying about loading up a Thompson and holding the trigger down on FA until it goes click, pretending you're James Cagney and laughing like hell as you spray rounds downrange from the hip. Sure, it is over quick, but damn ain't it grand?