[All4BigGuns]

The main point still remains that as debilitating it is to the character, the player should be completely 100% on board with developing it--and no taking the implant despite such a 'warning' is still not giving permission or being on board no matter how much Wyrm wants to think it is.

[Mara]

The main point still remains that as debilitating it is to the character, the player should be completely 100% on board with developing it--and no taking the implant despite such a 'warning' is still not giving permission or being on board no matter how much Wyrm wants to think it is.

Just like I really do not believe it is guaranteed. Its a fluffed risk. It is not the Borrowed Time negative quality.
One thing one needs to think about is this: We can and must assume that there is some advanced medical
tech involved in cyberware given how, other wise, every street sam would be taking a pill cocktail to avoid
their body rejecting all the ware. They have rules for when the GM decides someone is at risk for TLE-X.
What they don't have is strict rules that say when someone needs to start worrying about the tests.
To me, this means we have a rare condition that is most often seen in a set of individuals.
However, correlation does not equal causality.  Let's try looking at it like this

Let's say we have 2000 people.
Of them, 50 have Move by Wire, 200 have Skillwires and Wired Reflexes. 150 have synaptic booster and skillwires, 400 have
just Wired reflexes, and 1200 are various small wares, like Data jacks, eyes, etc.
Out of these 2000 people, we have 10 people(0.5 percent) with TLE-X. Of those, we have 5 who have Move by Wire, 1 who has
just a minor piece of ware, and 1 with Synaptic Booster and Skillwires, 1 with Wires and Wired Ref, and 2 with just wired reflexes.
This says that TLE-X is "Especially prominent among those with Move by Wire." However, it is STILL rare among them.
Yes, for some reason, MbW puts someone at greater risk of TLE-X, but....that is not enough to say that "You have MBW, you
will get this."

[WellsIDidIt]

A character with TLE-x is not dead. It can be both resisted and fixed through surgery or genetic treatments.

The fluff may not say it's a guarantee, the rules provided to resist it however make it very very likely that the character will gain the condition the moment a test is called for.

How often that test is called for is up to the GM. Just like how often a test to stave off malaria from mosquito bites would be in an amazonian jungle.

That said, the rule is there and does specifically call out Move by Wire systems.

taking the implant despite such a 'warning' is still not giving permission or being on board no matter how much Wyrm wants to think it is.

Yes, it is. If you're told that the implant does that, then you accept it when you take the implant. It's no different than being on board with the bonus to IP, Reaction, Dodge or the Skillwires it gives.

[All4BigGuns]

Again, giving permission would be using the following statement: "I give you permission to do this to my character."

Anything less is not permission, and your players should be walking out on your game.

[WellsIDidIt]

So, every single time your character is in a firefight you have to give the GM permission to shoot at your character?

No, he's given permission because you're playing Shadowrun. It's part of the game.

If you're told that MbW can easily cause TLE-x, you have three choices. A.) Don't Play, B.) Don't take MbW, C.) Take MbW and accept the possibility of getting TLE-x.

Taking the C route is giving permission, because it has been stated to be part of the option. If I tell a player no pixie mages, and he makes a pixie, he's accepting that he won't be making a mage.

If the player is going to get his panties in a twist, he should have taken option A or B, not C.

What you're saying is no different than checking into a hotel and accepting room charges for a minibar, eating/drinking everything in the minibar, then complaining that you didn't say  exactly "I give you permission to charge me" to the person.

When you're told or read about how MbW will work in a game, you're accepting that that's how it works. By playing, you're giving permission for it to work that way in the game. If you take MbW, you're giving permission for it to work that way on your character.

[All4BigGuns]

So, every single time your character is in a firefight you have to give the GM permission to shoot at your character?

And of course, the most over-exaggerated interpretation of what I said. Is being this transparent the only way you can "prove" your point?

[WellsIDidIt]

Seriously, do you have to give the GM permission to hurt your character? Kill your character? Drug your character? Have the Johnson screw your character over? Infect your character? Give your character a different disease?

Are you not giving him permission to use the rules of the game by, i don't know, playing the game? If he tells you how he's running the game, and you still play, are you not agreeing to how he runs the game?

I'll take your lack of a counter point as a simple indication that you don't have one, because there isn't one. Playing, after being told the rules, is giving the GM permission to use the rules. Then again, I guess ignoring the points made is really your only move left.

[All4BigGuns]

If it involves changing the character then yes explicit permission should be required (and the addition of a quality like that one is a drastic change to the character). I find it extremely funny that you take it to mean permission to attack, or the like.

[WellsIDidIt]

Well when a character is attacked, his pwecious wittle condition boxes change. I mean, sure, they heal up, kind of like you can get surgery to heal up TLE-x. Oh my.

If it involves changing the character then yes explicit permission should be required (and the addition of a quality like that one is a drastic change to the character).

Which is given, when the player agrees to play the game. Bottom line. That's the entire point of having rules to the game. The GM has no more obligation to ask the player for additional permission than the player has to ask GM for additional permission to use the agreed rules of the game.

You're effectively saying that the rules don't apply to the players unless the players want them to, which is horrible load of crap.

[All4BigGuns]

That's the thing, it isn't a hard and fast written out rule in the book that you will get the disease from the implant. It was in third, but that is gone now except for a few Grognards who refuse to let it go. The fact of the matter is, if the player was willing to 'explore suffering TLE-x', they would take the quality in character generation, otherwise, it is simply screwing them over just because the GM can, and that is wrong.

[WellsIDidIt]

Or the GM is using the disease rule in the book. I guess the Grognards wrote Augmentation. Disagree with that all you want, but it's there, and saying I'm using this is all the warning a player needs. If the player plays that means the player agrees to play by those rules, permission has been granted.

It has nothing to do with screwing the player, it's a play style choice. You don't like any play style that doesn't coddle the players, we all get that by now, that doesn't make people wrong for using other play styles. The rules are there to be used. If the player isn't willing to explore suffering TLE-x, they shouldn't take excessive cyberware or MbW systems, is a perfectly valid play style as well. Some players like to overcome overwhelming challenge instead of being coddled.

[All4BigGuns]

Or the GM is using the disease rule in the book. I guess the Grognards wrote Augmentation. Disagree with that all you want, but it's there, and saying I'm using this is all the warning a player needs. If the player plays that means the player agrees to play by those rules, permission has been granted.

It has nothing to do with screwing the player, it's a play style choice. You don't like any play style that doesn't coddle the players, we all get that by now, that doesn't make people wrong for using other play styles. The rules are there to be used. If the player isn't willing to explore suffering TLE-x, they shouldn't take excessive cyberware or MbW systems, is a perfectly valid play style as well. Some players like to overcome overwhelming challenge instead of being coddled.

And how the frak do you get "coddling" from expecting the players to be able to maintain complete control over their characters rather than having to worry about them getting changed on a whim by a piss-poor GM?

[Novocrane]

The advanced medtech rules are there to allow for grittier, more painful games than the standard rules.

If anyone wants to start with TLE-x, or run the possibility of acquiring it mid-game, it's on the GM & the player(s) to agree that this will help everyone enjoy the game.

[Icy]

We can and must assume that there is some advanced medical
tech involved in cyberware given how, other wise, every street sam would be taking a pill cocktail to avoid
their body rejecting all the ware.

The augmentation rejection question... I researched this after playing Deus Ex 3. The whole cyberware rejection thing is a major theme in the game. Here's what I've got:

The weak immune system quality in the Core Book can be caused by immunosupressants from augmentation procedures, so that's a hint.
Augmentation states that the great thing about Type-O Bioware is the fact it integrates without need for long term immunosupressant treatments. You just need a minor treatment in the transition phase and then you can continue without. So bioware seems to be exempt. Transplants from other peoples bodies would of course still cause the immune response, but there are no rules for that.
Cyberware on the other hand does get rejected. There are two sources which I found for that in SR4:
1. Zero (Arsenal) is a immunosupressant for cyberware users.
2. The Adapsin gene treatment in Augmentation is described in how it limits the long term immune response and bio-stress caused by cyberware by fooling the body to believe that the implants are natural. So Adapsin should reduce your needed dose of immunosupressants or even make them redundant.
This was kinda interesting because, as mentioned above, I started this research after plaing Deus Ex 3 and the research for a genetic treatment that would solve the rejection problem is also in this game's story.

Additionally, I found this (unfortunatly in german): http://www.shadowhelix.de/Sandimmun_Plus
It's a quote from a 2nd edtion book about advanced immunosupressant research in 2005 that later made modern cyberware implantation possible.

The thing is: There are no rules for how much drugs you need, but there are hints that you need them at all. I always imagined it like this: According to your grade of augmentations you take a specific amount of drugs each day or week or whatever. You can of course use your auto-injector or your Carcerands (Arsenal) or even the good old Implanon from todays age to do this automatically and not worry about it. You just need to adjust the dose when you get new ware. Excessive augmentation leads to excessive doses and that's when the weak immune system quality can be considered. The drugs should be covered in your lifestyle. Yes, that means that Augmention Joe will get health problems if he cannot pay for his lifestyle and his drugs supplies are depleted.

EDIT: Better graded ware should reduce the needed dose because it integrates much better into the body.

[WellsIDidIt]

And how the frak do you get "coddling" from expecting the players to be able to maintain complete control over their characters rather than having to worry about them getting changed on a whim by a piss-poor GM?

Asking permission to use already agreed upon rules to affect a character. That's how. Everything in the game is in complete control of the character/player. Don't want to get infected? Don't take the job in ghoul territory. Took the job and got bit? Face infection. Wait...what...GM is supposed to ask permission to impose infection rules on character that got bit after venturing into ghoul territory.