[All4BigGuns]

Good idea to make damn sure that all the players enjoy being that hard-nosed with that stuff rather than some of them forcing themselves to 'deal with it' because of the lack of groups in the area though. It may not necessarily be wrong, but it is something to be VERY careful about. That's why I said it's best to get explicit cooperation from the player rather than saying to yourself "They took the implant, that's permission enough for me.".

[WellsIDidIt]

That's why I said it's best to get explicit cooperation from the player rather than saying to yourself "They took the implant, that's permission enough for me.".

If they've been told about the risk and take the implant, that is explicit permission.

[Twitchy D]

Twitchy and Kat9, I'm going to bring up the address bar as evidence #1 forums.shadowrun4.com. This is where people are going to come to discuss shadowrun, to a ridiculous level. What discussion you think have merit or how long they have merit for is kind of out of sorts give we are at we are at a place who's reason d'etre is the discussion of things Shadowrun related. If it bugs you my only thought is maybe don't look at the thread? I mean I can disagree with Wyrm or 'Guns or an anyone else on 9 out of 10 issues. Obviously if I'm still participating in the discussion i'm still getting something out of it, even if it's only rhetorical practice. However what I wish for all the world I could banish all this forum meta bullshit all of you guys who don't actually want to discuss things you just want to *eat popcorn* and complain about the way people are discussing or all that other stuff. IF you don't like it, don't read it, ignore the thread. Basically what I ask of you, and I know I won't get it, but I ask this of anyone on a forum I'm on and the ones I've moderated in the past (scary I know). If your not adding anything to the discussion at hand either move it elsewhere or keep it to yourself. Basically if we were having this conversation in real life around a table and chairs at Gencon would you walk up to us and tell us we've been discussing the matter too long? Of course you wouldn't, your sense of decorum, or the round of derision you would receive would probably tell you otherwise.

Hey, Lurker, I think you and I were actually in agreement for this thread for a change. *blinks* Anyone know where the thermometer measuring Hell's temperature is? I think we need to see if it's frozen...

Well, at least there is some agreement on something, even if it is completely irrelevant from the topic at hand. However, I see less posts involving small agreements about little things, and more posts involving what I like to imagine is a bunch of people sitting across a table screaming "YOU'RE WRONG, I'M RIGHT CAUSE OF BLAH DE BLAH." And the funny thing about these topics are that they enevitably drag everyone into the thread to see who the hell is screaming about whatever. Even if they don't care about the topic in the first place, they might stick around just to see what happens next, like what I'm doing right now, as if it was a horrific car crash. So, yes, I guess you could say I'm a thread vulture. Maybe the thread would be better without my comments and opinions that don't give anything to the topic at hand, particularly right now. But I suppose that I should let you two know this; if my comments about how this thread has become just another gripefest between people who cannot live and let live allows other, quieter, more agreeable posters to get fed up with the fighting, seize this thread and get this topic back into a POSITIVE DIRECTION in order to have people try to reach an agreement in order to not deal with the loud, uncopromising extremes, then I'll be happy to be productive and helpful, or even leave. Generally, I find that it makes for less gripefests all around the board, and allows the new posters a chance to ask questions, rather then get shoved out onto the sidelines or leaving due to fear of accedentally starting a flamewar. Speaking of that, I'm wondering where wildeyes went while this was going on. I hope we didn't scare him off...

Rest assured, lurkeroutthere and All4BigGuns, I will not post on this topic again. I figure I should give you guys that much. I'm still going to watch, because frankly, I feel like looking, and I see no reason to stop. Just keep it in mind.

EDIT: Well, one exeption. A4BG is refering to this paragraph that I had neglected to quote from lurkeroutthere below this edit, wyrm, not on the one at the top of my post. I did not put it in the first time because I thought he was talking about the larger paragraph lurker had provided, a mistake I had made as well. Here is the rest of the post.

Back on the discussion at hand I thought I'd just chime in and compliment PeterSmith on stating what I was trying to convey much more eloquently then i did. Move-by-wire is an increased risk factor in the rare case of of someone getting TLE-X. It is not in and of itself a cause of TLEx. It takes a very skewed reading of the fourth edition rules to really decide otherwise.

[All4BigGuns]

Twitchy and Kat9, I'm going to bring up the address bar as evidence #1 forums.shadowrun4.com. This is where people are going to come to discuss shadowrun, to a ridiculous level. What discussion you think have merit or how long they have merit for is kind of out of sorts give we are at we are at a place who's reason d'etre is the discussion of things Shadowrun related. If it bugs you my only thought is maybe don't look at the thread? I mean I can disagree with Wyrm or 'Guns or an anyone else on 9 out of 10 issues. Obviously if I'm still participating in the discussion i'm still getting something out of it, even if it's only rhetorical practice. However what I wish for all the world I could banish all this forum meta bullshit all of you guys who don't actually want to discuss things you just want to *eat popcorn* and complain about the way people are discussing or all that other stuff. IF you don't like it, don't read it, ignore the thread. Basically what I ask of you, and I know I won't get it, but I ask this of anyone on a forum I'm on and the ones I've moderated in the past (scary I know). If your not adding anything to the discussion at hand either move it elsewhere or keep it to yourself. Basically if we were having this conversation in real life around a table and chairs at Gencon would you walk up to us and tell us we've been discussing the matter too long? Of course you wouldn't, your sense of decorum, or the round of derision you would receive would probably tell you otherwise.

Hey, Lurker, I think you and I were actually in agreement for this thread for a change. *blinks* Anyone know where the thermometer measuring Hell's temperature is? I think we need to see if it's frozen...

Well, at least there is some agreement on something, even if it is completely irrelevant from the topic at hand. However, I see less posts involving small agreements about little things, and more posts involving what I like to imagine is a bunch of people sitting across a table screaming "YOU'RE WRONG, I'M RIGHT CAUSE OF BLAH DE BLAH." And the funny thing about these topics are that they enevitably drag everyone into the thread to see who the hell is screaming about whatever. Even if they don't care about the topic in the first place, they might stick around just to see what happens next, like what I'm doing right now, as if it was a horrific car crash. So, yes, I guess you could say I'm a thread vulture. Maybe the thread would be better without my comments and opinions that don't give anything to the topic at hand, particularly right now. But I suppose that I should let you two know this; if my comments about how this thread has become just another gripefest between people who cannot live and let live allows other, quieter, more agreeable posters to get fed up with the fighting, seize this thread and get this topic back into a POSITIVE DIRECTION in order to have people try to reach an agreement in order to not deal with the loud, uncopromising extremes, then I'll be happy to be productive and helpful, or even leave. Generally, I find that it makes for less gripefests all around the board, and allows the new posters a chance to ask questions, rather then get shoved out onto the sidelines or leaving due to fear of accedentally starting a flamewar. Speaking of that, I'm wondering where wildeyes went while this was going on. I hope we didn't scare him off...

Rest assured, lurkeroutthere and All4BigGuns, I will not post on this topic again. I figure I should give you guys that much. I'm still going to watch, because frankly, I feel like looking, and I see no reason to stop. Just keep it in mind.

I think you misinterpreted my statement. I was saying that we were in agreement on the actual issue at hand, not this newest little side tangent...

[lurkeroutthere]

Well, at least there is some agreement on something, even if it is completely irrelevant from the topic at hand. However, I see less posts involving small agreements about little things, and more posts involving what I like to imagine is a bunch of people sitting across a table screaming "YOU'RE WRONG, I'M RIGHT CAUSE OF BLAH DE BLAH." And the funny thing about these topics are that they inevitably drag everyone into the thread to see who the hell is screaming about whatever.

So what i'm getting is your lack of impulse control should lead to my censorship? Honestly no matter how good your intentions are that's the way these discussions inevitably go. Our subject matter or our tone, or our language, or any other factor bothers you so we should stop. You want to act like you are a captive audience or it is in pursuit of some higher ideal, that's fine in your head. But it all comes back to you as a poster trying to enforce your will on other posters on what or how they should or should not discuss. I feel that is way beyond your purview.

Rest assured, lurkeroutthere and All4BigGuns, I will not post on this topic again. I figure I should give you guys that much. I'm still going to watch, because frankly, I feel like looking, and I see no reason to stop. Just keep it in mind.

Look all you want, participate all you want, but don't nominate yourself debate proctor or impromptu moderator.

[All4BigGuns]

Look all you want, participate all you want, but don't nominate yourself debate proctor or impromptu moderator.

I think it's time to let this little side-tangent drop.

Though for the most part, it might be best to let the whole thing drop off and for the thread to be locked. It's obvious at this point that it's just creating more problems. :/

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

That's why I said it's best to get explicit cooperation from the player rather than saying to yourself "They took the implant, that's permission enough for me.".

If they've been told about the risk and take the implant, that is explicit permission.

I suppose that when you nail it down, I agree with both of these statements - because they're not mutually exclusive.  At my table, MBW has (still has) TLE-x has a highly-likely side-effect, etc. etc..  Any player who wants to take MBW will get told about that side-effect, just like any player who wants to play a hacker running hot is going to be told about Black IC and what it can do to the inside of your head.  They will be asked, "Are you sure?" when they decide to implant (or jack in).  They do so.  When, down the line, they run into TLE-x or Black IC for whatever reason, they will do what they have always done: groan, fight it (if it's Black IC) and, either way, ask how to solve the problem that's cropped up in their lives, i.e. brain damage.  And the solution will be there, as it is.

I don't have a problem - have never had a problem - with either Lurker or A4BG asking the player's permission; that's the way they play it.  When it comes down to it, that's the way I play it, just with some lag time between 'asking permission/giving them the warning' and 'they get the disease'.  My issues have been with their argument that MBW is not the leading cause of TLE-x.  Wells' metaphor of lung cancer and 3 packs a day is a good one for my purposes; your grandmother may not ever actually get lung cancer from her 3-packs smoking, but that's by-god unlikely.

... and yes, Hell has frozen over; I agree with A4BG and Lurker regarding Twitchy-D and Kat9's whinging.  There's been no cussing, no insults, nothing - and they aren't the hall monitor.  That's why we have FastJack, and he hasn't even come around with the megaphone to warn us yet, mostly because we've been debating about the actual books, and not, y'know - insulting each other.  Which would be the metaphor for shouting and cursing and everything.  Sorry, Twitchy, Kat.

[All4BigGuns]

That's why I said it's best to get explicit cooperation from the player rather than saying to yourself "They took the implant, that's permission enough for me.".

If they've been told about the risk and take the implant, that is explicit permission.

I suppose that when you nail it down, I agree with both of these statements - because they're not mutually exclusive.  At my table, MBW has (still has) TLE-x has a highly-likely side-effect, etc. etc..  Any player who wants to take MBW will get told about that side-effect, just like any player who wants to play a hacker running hot is going to be told about Black IC and what it can do to the inside of your head.  They will be asked, "Are you sure?" when they decide to implant (or jack in).  They do so.  When, down the line, they run into TLE-x or Black IC for whatever reason, they will do what they have always done: groan, fight it (if it's Black IC) and, either way, ask how to solve the problem that's cropped up in their lives, i.e. brain damage.  And the solution will be there, as it is.

I don't have a problem - have never had a problem - with either Lurker or A4BG asking the player's permission; that's the way they play it.  When it comes down to it, that's the way I play it, just with some lag time between 'asking permission/giving them the warning' and 'they get the disease'.  My issues have been with their argument that MBW is not the leading cause of TLE-x.  Wells' metaphor of lung cancer and 3 packs a day is a good one for my purposes; your grandmother may not ever actually get lung cancer from her 3-packs smoking, but that's by-god unlikely.

... and yes, Hell has frozen over; I agree with A4BG and Lurker regarding Twitchy-D and Kat9's whinging.  There's been no cussing, no insults, nothing - and they aren't the hall monitor.  That's why we have FastJack, and he hasn't even come around with the megaphone to warn us yet, mostly because we've been debating about the actual books, and not, y'know - insulting each other.  Which would be the metaphor for shouting and cursing and everything.  Sorry, Twitchy, Kat.

Again with the misunderstanding...I wasn't saying they were whining. I was commenting on the fact that I was in agreement with Lurker's side of the argument.

[worloch]

I am a long time RPG player, but new to Shadowrun.  I believe that gives me perhaps a different perspective than some others, as I don't have preconceived notions of what the rules should be - I am only reading what they are.

I have read through all 7 pages of this, and I think as a new player, reading only the 4th edition rulebooks, I would be confused by the interpretation of MBW inflicting TLE-x, by default.

If you're inflicting TLE-x on your players (a consequence with game mechanics behind it) for taking MBW, do you inflict it on them for taking Wired Reflexes and Skillwire?  Do you inflict it on them for other Cyberware?  What is your threshold?  The wording quoted numerous times above doesn't actually give rules for deciding this, just an indication it is a possibility (fluff), and if you choose to go this route as GM, some guidelines on how you might work it.

Again, as a new player, I don't see the rules that say this must happen, so for me it falls directly in the "GM decides how his world works" realm of territory.  So, from my perspective, if you are inflicting TLE-x on players in your game for taking MBW, that is totally up to you, but the base rules don't support it.  As a player, I would be against this ruling, as it seems rather arbitrary in relation to the other mechanical options available (by mechanical I mean in terms of game mechanics;  IE - Not Fluff).


My final comment is simply to echo what others have said before and I think all agree on - Communication is key.  If this were to just suddenly happen to my character, and I as a player had no idea it was a possibility, I think I would have a right to be little miffed.  If the GM tells me upfront that MBW definitely causes TLE-x, I would be against the ruling, but I could choose to just Wired Reflexes + Skillwire + Reaction Enhancers instead, if I really wanted to avoid it.  If the GM tells me that being all Cybered up also has the chance to cause TLE-x, in addition to MBW definitely causes TLE-x, I would wonder what the GM has against Cybered  characters, and choose between playing a non-cybered character (Mage?  Technomancer?  Adept?), playing a character below the GM's pseduo "cyber limit", or not playing at all.  In any case, knowing beforehand is crucial to making informed decisions about how we choose to play this game, which should ultimately be fun for everyone involved, players and GM alike.

[Mara]

Worloch, the reason why when TLE-X mentions "Especially Move by wire" is because of how the system works.
It, essentially, puts you into an epileptic seizure controlled by the ware. Personally, I have always believed the
problem is more issues with the ware that gradually increase over time.  As an epileptic myself, who is aware during
seizures, there is nothing scarier then being aware while you cannot control your body. This is very much how I see
TLE-x caused by Move by Wire to be...

The biggest issue I have seen in this thread is: Is TLE-X caused by Move-by-wire inevitable or is it a Boogeyman of the
ware? Personally, I have always considered it inevitable on older versions(previous editions) of the MBW, but it has
gotten less likely as the ware has refined itself so that, today, MBW does have it as a risk, and it is the LEADING
cause of the problem. However, it is no-where near inevitable. In fact, the odds of a PC getting it are almost
nil because they are PCs, and thus are automatically exceptional. Now, if you take MbW and Unlucky and/or Sensitive Neural
Structure? You are going to get a talking to about the risk of TLE-X, and told I will be making an Body+Edge check every
month for their character. However, if they do not have that sort trait combination with it? It is a fluff risk.

[Falconer]

Mara,  that's why in my view of things... I tend to think they got 'ware and 'bio slightly wrong.

I think the up front costs should have been less but then it should have had a lot more in terms of 'maintenance' costs.   For ware that might reflect some semi-regular cyberdoc visits for tune-ups and maybe some anti-rejection drug subscriptions.    Deckers... the SOTA rules are slightly there... but the costs are so slight as to be a minor inconvenience if viewed as part of the monthly lifestyle cost.

If times get slim and you can't pay for the maintenance then things like this start popping up.   Not necessarily crippling but definitely problematic to the characters.

[worloch]

Worloch, the reason why when TLE-X mentions "Especially Move by wire" is because of how the system works.
It, essentially, puts you into an epileptic seizure controlled by the ware. Personally, I have always believed the
problem is more issues with the ware that gradually increase over time.  As an epileptic myself, who is aware during
seizures, there is nothing scarier then being aware while you cannot control your body. This is very much how I see
TLE-x caused by Move by Wire to be...

The biggest issue I have seen in this thread is: Is TLE-X caused by Move-by-wire inevitable or is it a Boogeyman of the
ware? Personally, I have always considered it inevitable on older versions(previous editions) of the MBW, but it has
gotten less likely as the ware has refined itself so that, today, MBW does have it as a risk, and it is the LEADING
cause of the problem. However, it is no-where near inevitable. In fact, the odds of a PC getting it are almost
nil because they are PCs, and thus are automatically exceptional. Now, if you take MbW and Unlucky and/or Sensitive Neural
Structure? You are going to get a talking to about the risk of TLE-X, and told I will be making an Body+Edge check every
month for their character. However, if they do not have that sort trait combination with it? It is a fluff risk.

Yeah, I can see the "fluff" link - the point I was trying to bring across with my post was more along the lines of, as a new player, I don't have any 'baggage'.  I'm not carrying around several editions worth of fluff and mechanics - what I see is what I see, without a context that may or may not be intended by the writers.

So, in this edition, while I see the fluff link, I don't see the mechanics link.  Again, that is why for me it falls squarely in the realm of GM Fiat, and as such, brings us right back to communication being the most important point.

If, in game, my character attempts to shoot someone at night, and the GM tells me that I take a penalty because its dark, I am unsurprised and unruffled, because that is clearly covered in the rules.

If my character suddenly falls comatose during a run due to TLE-x, without prior knowledge that developing TLE-x from MBW was a mechanical system the GM was imposing, I am going to be pretty upset, because as a player I don't see the mechanics for it in the rules.  If my GM tells me before I ever get MBW that it is mechanically in place, then the choice is back in my hands as a player, and I have little room to become upset when my choice burns me.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

And of course, my point is that though the links are fragmented it is mechanically in place, and that though the PCs may be 'special', they aren't immune, and that TLE-x is more than just a 'fluff' piece that no PC needs to worry about unless he's bored and wants to add a potentially-debilitating anyeurism to his character's life.  Yes, the samurai with delta-grade wired reflexes, skillwires, and whatever other DNI cyberware he can cram into his body is going to run the risk.  This is one reason why I feel that players SHOULD be aware of as many of the rules as possible.  But according to a straight reading of the rules, Move-By-Wire (a rare piece of cyberware) is a, if not the, leading cause of TLE-x (a rare disease/condition).

It's different at each table, I'm certain.

[Mara]

This is one reason why I feel that players SHOULD be aware of as many of the rules as possible.  But according to a straight reading of the rules, Move-By-Wire (a rare piece of cyberware) is a, if not the, leading cause of TLE-x (a rare disease/condition).

It is a risk factor. Sort of like smoking is a risk factor for lung cancer. However, there are people who smoke their whole
lives and never get lung cancer. Personally, the more I think about it, the more I think the reason why Move-by-wire
is singled out is NOT that it is the leading cause...but because it is a ware likely most often put in by StreetDocs and
similarly shadowy figures. This is a complex piece of ware to put in. It is very likely that, outside of Chiba and Beta+
capable Shadowclinics, that there are errors and slips in the installing, and that that is why it is seen the most
often in MbW implantees.

[WellsIDidIt]

Characters can fight off TLE-x their entire lives as well. It's rare, difficult, and improbable given the rules for TLE-x, but is is possible.
Move-by-wire wouldn't have to be the leading cause for it to be a nearly instant guarantee.

Let's take a look at lung cancer and smoking since we've already got that analogy going:
Lung cancer can be caused by smoking. (TLE-X can be caused be Cyberware)
Smoking creates a risk of Lung Cancer. (Excessive Cyberware creates a risk of TLE-x)
Smoking cigars creates a higher risk of Lung Cancer. (Installing MbW creates a higher risk of TLE-x)

Now, most smokers don't smoke cigars, so cigar smoking wouldn't be the leading cause of Lung Cancer, but that doesn't keep cigar smokers from being nearly guaranteed to get it. (Most people with excessive cyberware don't have MbW, so MbW wouldn't be the leading cause of TLE-x, but that doesn't keep them from being nearly guaranteed to get it.)

Now you could say, it's not the MbW, it's how it's implanted, but that's true with just about any DNI ware. TLE-x is caused by overactivity in the brain. MbW is most likely at a higher risk because of it's nature (constant seizure). That said, it is cyberware (less friendly and adapted to the body) and every little mistake would likely cause extreme issues (muscle tremors for instance); so I'd agree that implantation could/would be an additional factor.

Do you inflict it on them for other Cyberware?  What is your threshold?

I do, at a much slower rate. If they have over 3 essence worth of DNI controlled ware (what I consider to be excessive cyberware based on the everyday norm), I have them check1/year. Every part of a point over adds to the number of times per year i make them roll. So with up to 4 points it would be 2/year (1/6 months) at up to 5 points 3/year (1/4 months) and up to 6 points 4/year (1/3 months). Keep in mind, that's only DNI controlled cyberware.

When I have them check, I have them make an edge test with a threshold equal to the number of times per year they have to check (-1 if they're on AEXD). If they fail, they begin having to fight TLE-x once per month using the normal rules for fighting it.