[Csjarrat]

hi guys, been playing around with chummer recently and building a lot of test characters.
one of the options i noticed that i'd skimmed and forgotten a while back was the sensor software section in arsenal.
it looks like there are some cool things you could chuck in there, for example a face character:
rating four glasses
-rating 1 camera (can go micro and ditch the thermal for the +2 lie detection if GM feels you need to go smaller to be subtle)
     -thermographic
     -rating 6 empathy software
     -rating 6 lie detection software
-image link
-smart link
-flare compensation (or what ever floats your boat for the remaining 3 slots)

this would give +6 to social skill tests, and +8 to judge intentions tests when negotiating. on top of the standard load out of tailored pheromones this looks like a pretty decent option for boosting dice pools.
it aint cheap however, an emotitoy would be cheaper but probably less socially acceptable in some circles

the other thing i was looking at is loading up a drone sensor:
high rating camera
   -thermographic
   -low light
   -R6 Vehicle identification software
   -R6 Facial recognition software
   -Visual magnification
   -Visual enhancement R3
Directional microphone
   -R6 Voice recognition software

stick it on a drone near a target's office, home, favourite sandwich shop or commute route and have it tweet you when it has a positive ID on the target.

i havent seen these options on many/any builds posted on here, so what am i missing?
cheers!

[Xzylvador]

Any GM I've played with so far has banned Empathy Software (and Empathy Toys).
Truth be told, I don't think I would play with a GM who doesn't.
This may also be the reason it doesn't generally show up in the charbuild thread. It's just completely ridiculous and using it seems to be generally frowned upon.

The rest of the sensor software is okay, imo.

[Csjarrat]

Any GM I've played with so far has banned Empathy Software (and Empathy Toys).
Truth be told, I don't think I would play with a GM who doesn't.
This may also be the reason it doesn't generally show up in the charbuild thread. It's just completely ridiculous and using it seems to be generally frowned upon.

The rest of the sensor software is okay, imo.

i assume this is because its seen as a cheap and easy 6 dice? even with paying for just the software, its less cost and essence than the tailored pheromones but for a massively higher boost?

[Mäx]

I think your seriously misunderstanding the rules here, you don't but sensor software on your glasses, you run them on your commlink, just like all the other kind of software and you need one with system 6 to run those rating 6 softs(and that isn't really cheap piece of gear)

[Xzylvador]

@Csjarrat: Pretty much that, yeah. The cheapest skill boost in the books -by far- and it works on 5 skills!
Plus, there's the fact that if such cheap and easy to get software existed, everyone of even the slightest importance a runner would meet, would be using it.
This is a piece of software that turns a persons social skills from untrained to the level of world class diplomats. There's no reason this wouldn't be used by every runner or Johnson. Every salesperson should have it. If not, every customer with a piece of software could probably persuade him to give away his stuff for free. With it, his profit would probably increase enough to earn it back within a couple of days. Heck, even cops and security teams should have it. They'd be able to intimidate or sweet-talk everyone into complying with their demands. All gangers should have it too, instead of pulling a gun, they could just talk you into giving away your wallet and instead of stalking and raping those two girls, they could probably talk them into a threesome.
So yeah, easier to say "Uhm, nope. Not possible. Not in a longshot."

[Csjarrat]

I think your seriously misunderstanding the rules here, you don't but sensor software on your glasses, you run them on your commlink, just like all the other kind of software and you need one with system 6 to run those rating 6 softs(and that isn't really cheap piece of gear)

cool, thought i must be missing something!
the only text i could find was:
"With the computing power available in 2070, there’s a lot
you can achieve when you hook up a dedicated sensor system to a
tailored soft ware package."
this isnt exactly explicit, i read it as being a seperate module that you plug into a sensor, hence me modifying the glasses with a camera.
so, if it has to be run on a commlink, how does it interface with drones?
ta!

[Mithlas]

"With the computing power available in 2070, there’s a lot
you can achieve when you hook up a dedicated sensor system to a
tailored soft ware package."

I can see where you'd think that, but the general consensus is that software can only be loaded into hardware with proper matrix nodes, which is usually considered to be commlinks with dedicated System ratings (though this isn't universal, S4A p233 states that every wireless device has a built-in Scan program at rating 1, so at least some programs can be loaded into electronic devices). I would, however, be inclined to agree with you that some programs (voice recognition on microphones, facial recognition on cameras) just makes sense to be put onto that device, but this detail might be up to each GM.

if it has to be run on a commlink, how does it interface with drones?

Drones are slightly more built-up than other devices - for one, they all have their own node. That's how they can run Clearsoft (perception) and Targeting (attack) software, which are generally considered to be vital programs for every drone.

So to the others who are against the overmassive boost for Empathy Software, what if its rating was limited to 2-3? Or if it was restricted to "defensive" uses (ie Sense Motive bonus)?

[Csjarrat]

if it has to be run on a commlink, how does it interface with drones?

Drones are slightly more built-up than other devices - for one, they all have their own node. That's how they can run Clearsoft (perception) and Targeting (attack) software, which are generally considered to be vital programs for every drone.

sure, sounds good. how would the noise analysis interface with the pilot software for example? would the pilot be able to respond to the gunfire that the noise analysis detects and alerts it to? or would it need further programming to make use of it?
the software has nice benefits but the rules seem somewhat... scarce..

[farothel]

I think your seriously misunderstanding the rules here, you don't but sensor software on your glasses, you run them on your commlink, just like all the other kind of software and you need one with system 6 to run those rating 6 softs(and that isn't really cheap piece of gear)

cool, thought i must be missing something!
the only text i could find was:
"With the computing power available in 2070, there’s a lot
you can achieve when you hook up a dedicated sensor system to a
tailored soft ware package."
this isnt exactly explicit, i read it as being a seperate module that you plug into a sensor, hence me modifying the glasses with a camera.
so, if it has to be run on a commlink, how does it interface with drones?
ta!

You hook up your camera to your commlink.  Take a digital picture, upload it in your 'link and let the link handle the rest.  As soon as it's done, upload the result back into the image link build into your glasses.

As for drones, it depends on their pilot rating.  I would say they could have other things work together with the pilot program (which is described in the book as a specialised agent, and agent can work with other programs), but with a max rating up to their pilot rating (again, just like agent programs).  That's why you have to upgrade the pilot rating on all drones you buy and install the fuzzy logic upgrade.  That makes it more flexible.

[Xzylvador]

Not going to start the whole Empathy Software/Toy discussion again, so I'll just ask this and then bail out, won't comment any further:
Do you honestly find it reasonable, both mechanically or fluff/roleplay-wise, that a simple toy or a piece of cheap, easy obtainable software could make the average John Q Public suddenly have the same social/manipulation skills than, for example, Hestaby or Nadja Daviar?
 Because personally, I find it to be breaking the game's immersion and believability and mechanically it's simply wrong.
Hm. Was written in reply to a comment that's now gone. So yeah, nevermind.

[Mirikon]

I think it is fairly clear that sensor software (all of them, including empathy software and vocal recognition) are programs, and must be run on a commlink or other such device. As such, they are restricted to the normal limitations of programs. Also, most sensor software needs some form of input to work, such as a camera or microphone, cybereyes/ears, or natural senses linked with a DNI.

[Csjarrat]

cool, thanks guys. i get the sense this has been battled over multiple times so will use my search-fu :-)
it all makes sense, and yes it is a bit cheap. i had R6 empathy on a hacker build who had one skill point in negotiation. it meant he ended up with a dice pool of 10 which did seem a little off kilter!

[Mithlas]

Another way to avoid any single advantage from overloading suspense of disbelief is to take the rule (away from books, can't remember where specifically in S4A it is) that bonuses can only boost a skill to 1.5 x the skill (so only adding up to 50%).

That way if you've got empathy software you can keep it in the game but say "only people who are actually practiced in applied psychology/manipulation know how to get the most out of it". A hacker with r3 empathy software but only 1d in Influence would be unable to draw a noteworthy boost from it (up to 1d at the most, which usually wouldn't be able to cancel out all of the negative modifiers likely in effect), but if he loaned it to the team Face with 4d in Influence, then this would enable them to act like a suave 6d (4*1.5) manipulator. Either way, I do lean more towards those who say the cost is too low, the availability too easy, and the benefits too broad. Up to your table to decide how to deal with that, or if it's really a problem.

[WellsIDidIt]

Well, a few quick points here:
A.) All Charisma linked skills are subject to the special rule on page 130 SR4A, "Cumulative positive Social Modifiers may not exceed the character’s combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings." This isn't the optional rule that applies to all skills, it's a core rule that applies only to charisma linked skills.

So if you have a Charisma of 3 and Skill of 1, you can only ever benefit from a maximum +4 modifier on your social rolls.

B.) I'd have to disagree entirely that it's clear in anyway that Sensor Software must be run on a Commlink. I cannot find a single reference to Commlinks anywhere in the section. In fact the only part that makes a call concerning all Sensor Software is the one that Csjarrat put forth (when you hook up a dedicated sensor system to a tailored software package"). In addition, most of the programs themselves mention specific sensors they work with, but no mention of being connected to a commlink. Lastly, the name itself heavily implies that it's Sensor Software and not Commlink Software.

Just like Autosofts are software for drone pilots, activesofts are software for skillwires; neither of them require a commlink of rating X to run rating X software on the device. It's the device's rating (or other ratings inherent to the device such as pilot) that matters.

Let's look at the supporting evidence:
Unwired, pg.118 Peripheral Nodes (emphasis mine)

Peripherals use the same rules as standard nodes (see Devices and Software Ratings, p. 206, SR4), with some restrictions. They are only able to run a single persona and can only run programs they are designed to use. Matrix attributes of peripheral nodes range from 1 to 6 just like standard nodes, though most peripherals have low Response ratings. For simplicity, most peripheral nodes are given a single Device rating to represent all of their Matrix attributes (see Device Rating, p. 213, SR4), but gamemasters should feel free to adjust ratings as they feel appropriate.

Since the operating systems of peripheral nodes are far more limited and focused, their System rating is not restricted by the Response rating, as is the case with standard nodes. In other words, the System rating of peripheral nodes may exceed Response rating without penalty.

What does this mean? Let's use a Camera 6 for an example. This Camera is treated like a normal node with the following restrictions: can only run a single persona, can only run programs designed to be used on the camera, and system is not restricted by response. The last one isn't a bad thing, but it's still a drop off of the normal node rules, so I like to bundle it in there. Now this Camera has a device rating of 6. For simplicity, this means that the camera is treated as having 6 in all of it's matrix attributes (though the GM is given free reign explicitly to smash those attribute scores as he sees fit).

Now let's look at device ratings in particular. SR4A, pg. 222.

Device Rating
There are far too many electronics in the world of Shadowrun for a gamemaster to keep track of their individual Matrix attributes. Instead, each device is simply given a Device rating. Unless it has been customized or changed in some way, assume that each of the Matrix attributes listed above for a particular device equals its Device rating.

So this seems to be exactly what Unwired stated. Device Rating = Matrix Attributes. In addition to this, let's look at the Device Rating table. A rating 6 camera (Device Rating 6) is cutting edge technology. Normal security devices are assumed Device Rating 4. I would propose that part of the disconnect most people feel is that 1) High DR gear is cheaper than it should be and 2) High DR gear is more available than it should be.

So the only limiting factor we are left with out of all of this is one of the restrictions, "can only run programs they are designed to use."
Which brings us back to Sensor Software. Is Sensor Software designed to be used on sensor suites?
Sensor Suites
-Share a name (Sensor) with the software type.
-Are mentioned in the Sensor Software Brief.
-Are able to run software designed to be run on them by the rules.
Commlinks
-Speculation

Now, I'm not saying that Sensor Software can't be run on commlinks and work on Peripheral Nodes. Commlinks are not limited by the "can only run programs they are designed to use," clause. You could easily run Weapon Watcher on your commlink and have it linked to your camera. This is beneficial since you can link up an entire security network to one commlink/nexi with the relevant programs running rather than having to install them on each individual device. Peripheral Nodes are usually slaved anyway, so it's a 2 for 1 special on that plan.

[Mäx]

Well, a few quick points here:
A.) All Charisma linked skills are subject to the special rule on page 130 SR4A, "Cumulative positive Social Modifiers may not exceed the character’s combined natural Attribute + Skill Ratings." This isn't the optional rule that applies to all skills, it's a core rule that applies only to charisma linked skills.

Witch is only applied to that specific type of modifiers listed in the table on the next page(and all similar ones GM may come up with), not to any other type of modifiers.