[WellsIDidIt]

If it's a Social Test, the modifiers are Social Modifiers. I could see an argument made for Specialization, but that's really about it. The same section that makes the rule refers to everything from prejudice to an overly loud environment. What other types of modifiers are there to Social Tests? Non-Social Modifiers? Doesn't seem to really make sense.

Now, let's look at Empathy Software and it's bonus specifically, since it's the thing that catches the most flak. "Empathy software can be discreetly used in real time during negotiations or social interactions, adding its rating as a dice pool bonus to the character’s Social skill tests."

It is only relevant for social interaction and only modifies specifically social skills. I fail to see how it's any less of a Social Modifier than the rest the ones detailed on 131.

[Xzylvador]

Devil's advocate:

<snip book quotes> adding its rating as a dice pool bonus to the character’s Social skill tests. <more snipping>

They are a "dice pool bonusses", not Social Modifiers as listed in the table labled "Social Modifiers".

Anyhow, as I said, a non-issue in most games.

[Unahim]

I agree they are not, by the RAW, social modifiers. But maybe they should be.

[WellsIDidIt]

Straight from page 60, SR4A (Emphasis not mine)

Dice Pools
When a player makes a test, she rolls a number of dice equal to her dice pool. The dice pool is the sum of the relevant skill plus its linked attribute, plus or minus any modifiers that may apply.

In addition, let's check out the table for Social Modifiers. The legend has this to say:

* Unless otherwise noted, these dice pool modifiers apply to the acting
character’s dice pool.
† These modifiers apply to the target character’s dice pool.
‡ These modifiers can apply to either character’s dice pool.

Anything that modifies the dice pool (rather than the skill rating or attribute rating) is a dice pool modifier (bonus or penalty). A Social Modifier is a dice pool bonus or penalty to a Social skill. Saying that it's a dice pool bonus, in no way, precludes it from being a Social Modifier. So what you have is a dice pool bonus to Social skill tests, which counts as a modifier as far as the rules are concerned (a dice pool is, as quoted above, Skill + Attribute +/- Modifiers). How is it not a Social Modifier at that point?

What is the definition of a Social Modifier? What we have to go on is this here:

Social Modifiers
Many sorts of modifiers may apply to social skill tests, depending on the situation and characters in question.

The section goes on to list such an example as this: "For example, trying to influence someone in a club where the music is overbearingly loud, while being covered in blood, or when wearing a rival team’s sports jersey in the wrong sports bar may all impact a character’s Charisma-linked tests."

Which blatantly tells us that anything from environmental factors (hard to hear/be heard in example), unkempt/horrifying appearance (covered in blood), and prejudice (rivals) are all social modifiers. It also heavily implies with "The gamemaster should evaluate each situation and apply modifiers as he feels appropriate. The Social Modifiers Table (p. 131) provides some examples," that any modifiers the GM deems worthy are Social Modifiers when used for a social test (that is the name of the entire section after all), and literally tells us that the tables are merely some examples. It's not a case of "Here you go, the GM may find a few more." It's a case of "Here is the tip of the iceberg, because nearly anything could count."

Anyhow, as I said, a non-issue in most games.

The point is that it's banned because people misinterpret/don't know about/disregard the rule about social modifiers and their limits. If you really look at it, the only people that are going to be able to make use of a full rating 6 empathy software are people that are already well skilled in those areas. Anyone not well skilled, it's just going to be helping to mitigate penalties, or limiting the other bonuses you can get.

If it's considered overpowered, a much better house rule is to limit it to resistance rolls rather than flat out tossing it in the basket. Then again, I've personally taken a stance much like melee combat on Social Test and use the following house rule:

Skill Used	Acting Character Rolls	Target Character Rolls
Con	Con+Charisma	Con+Judge Intentions
Etiquette	Etiquette+Charisma	Perception+Judge Intentions
Intimidation	Intimidation+Charisma*	Intimidation+Composure
Leadership	Leadership+Charisma	Leadership+Composure
Negotiation	Negotiation+Charisma	Negotiation+Judge Intentions

*Characters may use their Body or Strength attribute for determining maximum Social Modifier bonuses.

I don't change the social modifier cap, but I find this really helps keep things more even because the rolls usually end up being around Attribute+Skill x 2 vs. a resistance of Attribute+1 or 2 in most cases. It also keeps me from feeling bad about using intimidate/con against my players.

[Unahim]

All social modifiers are dice pool modifiers on social skill tests, but that doesn't mean all modifiers to social skill tests have to be social modifiers. A social modifier is somethign that gives a penalty or bonus based upon a socially (un)acceptable factor in a certain situation, not something that universally applies to all tests. All the example given reinforce this idea (like, being covered in blood may give a penalty in one situation, but nothing in another).

The software doesn't do that, it just gives you a bonus all the time, and not because of the situational benefits, but just because that's what it does. The social modifiers are specifically meant to flow from the likes/dislikes of the other, or environmental details, nothing else.

But as I said, I think the software should be held against the same rules. By the raw it doesn't, though, even though my explanation here is clumsy since I'm in a bit of a hurry.

[WellsIDidIt]

A social modifier is somethign that gives a penalty or bonus based upon a socially (un)acceptable factor in a certain situation, not something that universally applies to all tests.

Quote please. I placed the exact text from the book above. Nowhere does it state this about Social Modifiers. In fact, it includes a factor that has nothing to do with the social acceptability of the character in the example (loud noise). You're adding restrictions to the description in the book that are never stated to be there, and your restriction does not account for the example given.

All social modifiers are dice pool modifiers on social skill tests, but that doesn't mean all modifiers to social skill tests have to be social modifiers.

"The gamemaster should evaluate each situation and apply modifiers," not that this sentence says apply modifiers, not apply Social Modifiers. Whatever the gamemaster decides is a factor counts as this entire explanation is under the heading Social Modifiers; the entire point of the section is to explain what Social Modifiers are.

The software doesn't do that, it just gives you a bonus all the time, and not because of the situational benefits, but just because that's what it does. The social modifiers are specifically meant to flow from the likes/dislikes of the other, or environmental details, nothing else.

It does do that. It gives you a bonus only in real time interactions. In addition, it must have a video feed of the target. It is extremely situational. Not that this at all matters for whether it's a Social Modifier or not, see above.

[Unahim]

I take full responsibility and blame for not finding the right words to make you get it, but I'll try again.

It's quite clear from all the examples given in the book that it intends for the "Social Modifiers" to be modifiers based upon the situation you find yourself in, not universal aids that apply regardless of who you have against you. For example the "loud noise": That is most likely going to be a situation that you find yourself in that is not of your own design. Perhaps it -is- of your own design, but even then, it cannot be expected to just flat out provide a bonus or penalty every time. Some people will be distracted by the noise, others will not be. It's situational.

In the same way, a bloody t-shirt will unnerve some, which will give penalties or bonuses based upon the character of the person in front of you. Sure, you can bloody a shirt yourself, but it won't universally apply the same modifier to everyone, and it is more likely to be a circumstance you just happen to find yourself in.

The software is nothing like that. It applies a flat bonus whenever you bring it into play, period. None of the other examples given are anything like that. The software provides a gear/technical bonus to your social skill rolls, but it's not a Social Modifier. Notice how it says "social" modifier, and not "social skill" modifier. That's because the social in that description isn't the social there to indicate that it's a modifier to social skills, but to indicate it's a modifier from social cicumstances.

A program isn't a social circumstance, it's just a tool, a piece of gear.

This is what others have tried to make you see as well: You're using the wrong social in Social Modifier. If someone said "social security" they're not talking about defense rolls against a social skill test, either.

[WellsIDidIt]

It's quite clear from all the examples given in the book that it intends for the "Social Modifiers" to be modifiers based upon the situation you find yourself in, not universal aids that apply regardless of who you have against you. For example the "loud noise": That is most likely going to be a situation that you find yourself in that is not of your own design. Perhaps it -is- of your own design, but even then, it cannot be expected to just flat out provide a bonus or penalty every time. Some people will be distracted by the noise, others will not be. It's situational.

It's quite clear from the book that this is what a Social Modifier is:

Social Modifiers
Many sorts of modifiers may apply to social skill tests, depending on the situation and characters in question.

Note the underlined point. It does not matter why the modifier applies. It's a modifier applying to a social skill test.

You're using the wrong social in Social Modifier

I used the book as a reference. If you disagree, please provide a quote with rules text that supports your stance.

A program isn't a social circumstance, it's just a tool, a piece of gear.

So a gun with Custom Look isn't a social modifier either? Sometimes the software doesn't work. What if you're talking to a voice box instead of a person? What if you're talking to a "person" that doesn't show emotion (mimic drone for instance)? What if there is a Jammer in the room? What if your camera can't actually focus on the character (camera neutralizer or low-ligh/dark conditions)?

How are these situations not part of the situational setup? Again, where is defined that the modifier must be situational to be a Social Modifier. They can be situational, but nothing says they have to be.

For example the "loud noise": That is most likely going to be a situation that you find yourself in that is not of your own design. Perhaps it -is- of your own design, but even then, it cannot be expected to just flat out provide a bonus or penalty every time. Some people will be distracted by the noise, others will not be. It's situational.

How is not being distracted by the noise any different from the situations I mentioned where the empathy software doesn't work? How is it any different than pulling out a gun (which may not intimidate some folks), wielding magic (which may not scare other mages), or causing pain (which may be negated by magic, augs, or drugs)?

Bottom line sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, just like everything else on the table.

You seem to be focused only on bonuses. What about the penalties listed. How is being drunk any more situational. Any time you're drunk, you take a -1to you social skills. Sure, you're not always drunk (most likely), but any time you are, you take the penalty.

This is no different than empathy software. You're not born with it, you don't always get the bonuses, but any time it would apply, it applies.

That's because the social in that description isn't the social there to indicate that it's a modifier to social skills, but to indicate it's a modifier from social cicumstances.

Please, before you respond again, find a rules source to support this. The closest thing I've found is this part of the quote I posted, "depending on the situation and characters in question." I can see how you could try to take "depending on the situation," to mean things must be situational to apply, but that isn't the end of the sentence. The other part "and characters in question," includes the character with the Empathy Software right? Is the empathy software not part of that character?

Now you can argue that gear isn't part of a character, but at what point does this start falling apart. Gear is a fundamental part of the character creation process. Augmentations are gear as well, and are most assuredly part of the character.

In closing, I seem to find that your "social circumstances" theory is merely speculation on how you want it to be ruled. Run it that way if you want, but it doesn't change what the rulebook says, which is what I've been covering.

[Mirikon]

It is true that modifiers are capped at (Attribute+Skill) dice added to the pool. So someone with Charisma 5 and Con 5 couldn't get more than 10 bonus dice to the roll from modifiers. Of course, if he somehow had a modifier that would give him 12 bonus dice, then that effectively means he has a cushion as far as negative social modifiers are concerned before he starts actually taking penalties.

[WellsIDidIt]

Which always helps when you're in a deafening club, covered in blood wearing the other teams jersey asking for directions to the nearest rival fan club. 

[Mäx]

If it's a Social Test, the modifiers are Social Modifiers.

No they are not, Social Modifiers are a very specific subgroup of dicepool modifiers that can affect a Social test.
These are the type of modifiers that GM can apply to the situation based on all kinds of situational conditions, of witch the next page table provides a handly list of examples.
Where as the other bonuses you can get are nothing like that, for example:
Improved Ability always boost the characters skill, no matter the situation or the people involved(well obviously the character with this power much be involved)
And so does the bonus from Kinesics, Improve Charisma,Empathy Software,Charisma boosting Drugs,Mentor Spirit bonuses, Tailored Pheremones,Enhanced Phermone Receptors(well these 2 have few situation when they don't work) and Vocal Range Enhancer.

[WellsIDidIt]

Improved Ability always boost the characters skill, no matter the situation or the people involved(well obviously the character with this power much be involved)

Look at dice pool. Improved Ability improves the skill, it is not a modifier.

Kinesics, Improve Charisma,

Background counts can reduce levels of power, improve spells can be dispelled.

Additionally, assensing Johnson's (or those with magical support) can always request powers be dropped before a deal or walk. Everything can be situational.

Charisma boosting Drugs

How are these different from intoxication which always works when you drink enough? Sometimes you have it, other times you don't.

Tailored Pheremones

Work over the commlink? With target's that are chemically sealed? When soaked in anti-sent spray?

Enhanced Phermone Receptors

Pretty much the same list in reverse works I believe.

Vocal Range Enhancer

Text based negotiations? Target can't hear and is lip reading? Target has a translator relaying information to him?

Empathy Software

Non-real time interaction? machine interaction? camera neutralizers? total darkness? Jammers?

Every one of those is situational. Sure it always works in circumstances where it will work, but it doesn't always work.

No they are not, Social Modifiers are a very specific subgroup of dicepool modifiers that can affect a Social test.

Where do you get this? What page and book? I have yet to find any definition of Social Modifier other than the one I've repeatedly quoted from the book. The listed table is quite blatantly stated to be some examples of modifiers that are Social Modifiers, but never is any stipulation put that the modifier must be situational, circumstantial, or anything else. In fact, the only stipulation placed is that the modifiers "apply to social skill tests."

How is a bit of software any different than a forged Security ID card for you targeted facility? They are both pieces of gear that you use. They both have situations where they won't work.

[Mäx]

Improved Ability always boost the characters skill, no matter the situation or the people involved(well obviously the character with this power much be involved)

Look at dice pool. Improved Ability improves the skill, it is not a modifier.

Yes it is, more specifically its a skill modifier

Kinesics, Improve Charisma,

Background counts can reduce levels of power, improve spells can be dispelled.
Additionally, assensing Johnson's (or those with magical support) can always request powers be dropped before a deal or walk. Everything can be situational.

Well obivously those don't work if you don't have them. YOu or somthing else completely removing the power doesn't make it situational.

No they are not, Social Modifiers are a very specific subgroup of dicepool modifiers that can affect a Social test.

Where do you get this? What page and book? I have yet to find any definition of Social Modifier other than the one I've repeatedly quoted from the book.

You don't need anything else, that quote talks about a sub type of a modifier(as they all are dicepool modifiers) and gives rules for it. It very very clearly doesn't say anything about being the only type of modifier that can ably to social tests.
All the other types of modifiers(skill modifiers, Attribute modifiers and general dice pool modifiers) can ably to social test just like they ably to all otherkind of tests.

[WellsIDidIt]

All the other types of modifiers(skill modifiers, Attribute modifiers and general dice pool modifiers) can ably to social test just like they ably to all otherkind of tests.

For building a dice pool, you take skill, linked attribute, and modifier. The skill and attribute are modified before ever figuring the dice pool for an action. Look at the text more carefully:

Social Modifiers
Many sorts of modifiers may apply to social skill tests, depending on the situation and characters in question.

If it's modifying the skill or attribute, then it isn't modifying the social skill test, it's modifying part of the character that is used in the social skill test. You have to hit Step A before ever getting to step B.

Now, what are general dice pool modifiers? Where are they defined? What makes them general and not another type? Where does it state that bonuses to a test can be untyped? You do in fact need a reference stating these things. I don't even know of what other kinds of tests get general modifiers.

Now, to go further into what you're saying, let's look at the quote again.

Social Modifiers
Many sorts of modifiers may apply to social skill tests, depending on the situation and characters in question.

Oh my, Social Modifiers can be of "Many sorts." They are not a single sub-type of modifier. "Many sorts of modifiers may apply to social skill test;" this is the definition of Social Modifiers. It does not matter if it's normally a general modifier to the skill test, a visibility modifier to the skill test, a range modifier to the skill test, all that matters is that once it gets applied to the social skill test it falls under the consideration of Social Modifiers.

Well obivously those don't work if you don't have them. YOu or somthing else completely removing the power doesn't make it situational.

You realize that you are essentially saying that removing a condition doesn't make it situational. The inverse of that is that applying a condition doesn't make it situational. At that point, where does a condition become situational. A character running into a bar naked isn't a situation modifier because his clothing was removed? A character wearing a bloodied shirt isn't a situation modifier because it was applied? Where does the split occur?

[Xzylvador]

Now both sides made their points and positions are clear.
Let's all agree it's a topic of debate (which is once again proven here), say "Let's agree to disagree" and let our/their respective GM's deal with this as they see fit?