[MatrixWraith]

  Ok so I am at a bit of a loss right now after our 3rd session. In our first session the Street Sam died from all the gunfire flinging around. At first I chalked it up to a bad character and not anything to do with melee. In our second session the group of 4 attacked a Street Sam and his vampire friend. The Sam delayed his action as his Vamp buddy Influenced (sorry I believe this is the ability but the books aren't infront of me) the Gunslinger type guy blocking the door. He was next moved and attacked the party's combat mage. The other two players then killed the Sam before his next IP. Then finally tonight the party got seperated and attacked while seperated. A Cyber assassin/sniper character hacked at the Mage's motorbike tire flipping it (not sure on the rules but we decided she did enough damage to collapse the tire thus halting forward movement). The mage was hurt so badly he levitated on his turn away. The groups Gunslinger and his Enemy had the same initiative. He shot at her 4 times (Two Guns using burst attack - another player said this was how much he could attack and I was to preoccupied to look) as she ran up and slashed at him twice (Nartaki - 4 arms using 2 Katana's).

  The end result was he hit her twice and EASILY dodged her two attacks. Cannot remember exact dice pools of the top of my head but if I recall she had 2 rolls of 10 dice and his melee dodge was 21 dice total. She was reduced to unconciousness after that one IP. I was thouroughly disappointed and concluded the whole next encounter was mute as they were going up against Ghouls that would have been destroyed. We decided as a group to end it there, play a couple games of magic and I'd go back to figuring things out prior to trying again on Sunday. I don't mind at all if my group wrecks encounters. I don't mind at all as long as everyone is having fun. But I don't see a point if there is zero challenge. They agree.

  So my questions are is melee so much weaker than ranged combat in Shadowrun? If not am I doing something wrong? I know its hard to tell when you don't see the numbers and characters but wanted to keep this post somewhat short. Thanks for any advice in advance. I guess next time I should write down questions as we play or make a short note as I forgot most of them now.

[All4BigGuns]

Melee is more easily avoided, yes, as it tends to have lower dice pools against a higher defensive dice pool, but the damage can get higher than all but the biggest and hardest to conceal guns. I think the main reason your player's melee character missed is due to using two-weapon for attack. Suggest to him/her to try using the second blade for full parry and only attack with one of the weapons. That should help out quite a bit.

[Lysanderz]

Melee is mediocre unless focused on. But you'll be thankful for whatever points you pump into it for that scenario when you have only your body and environment to fight with.

[Crunch]

Shouldn't have brought a knife to a gun fight?

[All4BigGuns]

One other thing, melee can seriously dominated if you catch the enemy completely off-guard. Meaning that it would be great for an infiltrator/assassin style character.

[Lysanderz]

@Crunch

You've obviously never had to break out of a corpsec prison cell, or a Lonestar holding station. Or sitting at the airport gate behind the security and knowing the only thing you can possibly sneak through security that tight is your little ol' ceramic knife.

That being said, remember that if you dispose of a body in the airport restroom, be sure to wash the blood off your sleeves before stepping back into the crowd and onto your flight.

[MatrixWraith]

Thanks for the replies. As you can tell from my post Crunch I wasn't aware that a "knife" was that much weaker than guns. I think its pathetic that you are pigeon holed into guns or magic (not including Matrix combat in this). I just wish there was some balance. Oh well. Thanks agian all.

[DaveDaveDaave]

Thanks for the replies. As you can tell from my post Crunch I wasn't aware that a "knife" was that much weaker than guns. I think its pathetic that you are pigeon holed into guns or magic (not including Matrix combat in this). I just wish there was some balance. Oh well. Thanks agian all.

Not so much pigeon holed, ever, in this system its just that for some reason, possibly physics I think the system treats a punch in the face or a 2 by 4 to the shoulders as less immediately harrowing than a bullet in the face. Saying that  tho IF a character wants to go all out close combat wombat then it is very possible. Jason Bourne levels of unarmed combat goodness or the Laundry Day Punisher webcast needs the character to be built for it. Heavy on the Martial Arts Qualities and preferably 6 ranks in Combat Sense, then Critical Strike, Killing Hands and Nerve Strike/Knockdown Strike anything after that would be just gravy. Even without Adept powers a close combat trained char in SR4a can brutalise  someone not as trained as himself, but he would be ... foolish... to try that if hes on the far side of the room and the target has a gun and the drop on him? Balance I have never really noticed as a major factor in any edition of Shadowrun. The rules seem to be built on some common sense, a frosting of cinematics then a large dollop of rule of cool.

[Crunch]

@Crunch

You've obviously never had to break out of a corpsec prison cell, or a Lonestar holding station. Or sitting at the airport gate behind the security and knowing the only thing you can possibly sneak through security that tight is your little ol' ceramic knife.

That being said, remember that if you dispose of a body in the airport restroom, be sure to wash the blood off your sleeves before stepping back into the crowd and onto your flight.

Actually my favorite character is a melee type, but when the lead starts flying melee characters have to get to cover, get sneaky and get clever because charging the machine guns is bad tactics.

[MatrixWraith]

Mine to Crunch and that is why I posted this topic. Wanted to get a feel for others opinions on the matter. But I have a lot ot learn on building an effective character be it melee or otherwise. That isn't my focus though. My focus is on rules as I am running the game. I just happen to have to make two of the players there characters with input from them (as they are a 13 year old and an adult with aspurgers).

[Mirikon]

In a world with guns, using melee to it's full potential requires battlefield control. In other words, arranging things so that you get into melee range with your foe without getting turned into swiss cheese. In close quarters (most indoor environments, aside from large spaces like warehouses), this is actually easier than it sounds. Remember, most firefights take place between 10-20 feet (about 5m). So in those conditions, getting into melee range is not that difficult. The hard part is keeping your foe in melee range, and keeping his buddies from filling you with lead while you're chasing him.

Now, why would you go through all this work? Well, for one thing, melee is much quieter than firearms, as a rule. Yes, there is such a thing as a silencer, but this brings me to my second point: you can be in situations without guns, but you will never be without a melee weapon. That alone is enough reason that you should at least consider training in one melee skill. The third reason is that melee weapons are almost always legal, and can be brought more places than guns. Compare carrying a katana in Neo-Tokyo to carrying an assault rifle. Also compare bringing your favorite SMG to a fancy party to carrying in a gentleman's cane, reinforced to make a heavy club.

So really, everyone should at least know a little melee, for their own good. But the ones who focus on it should really only be the types most likely to get in those kinds of situations: street samurai, covert ops types, and some combat mages/adepts. Street sammies are obvious. Covert ops types tend to be in situations where guns, even suppressed guns, are a Bad Thing^(tm), and a knife coated in Slab makes an infinitely quieter way of dealing with guards. And as for the Awakened types, being able to swing a sword or throw a punch actually goes very well with their Talent, especially if they have an Elemental aura/effect. That -half AP plus secondary effects makes a lot of difference when the Adept with Killing Hands throws a punch and lights you on fire.