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Street Samurai/Face

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Novocrane

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« Reply #15 on: <12-06-12/0339:57> »
"Breaking even" is a house rule, A4BG.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #16 on: <12-06-12/0342:10> »
"Breaking even" is a house rule, A4BG.

It's not any kind of rule, house or otherwise. It is simply using common sense that when a combination of positive and negative qualities cancel each other out, and yet can work together in a harmonious fashion, to allow them to do so.

Or are you one of those firmly in the camp of "all negative qualities must constantly every session ream the character with them"?
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Novocrane

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« Reply #17 on: <12-06-12/0609:54> »
Except it's not common sense. A GM has some clear points to bring up when you perform such a 'cancelling out' - 'shrugging off', as it's put. There's no need for words like 'ream' in this - just that if you want to make SINner more passive than a store of data on your runner, whether it comes through Erased, or a mix of cosmetic surgery, DNA scrambling, print scrubbing, retinal alteration, behavioural modifications, plus a new name and residence ... whatever. It's time to tally the karma.

The harmonious state that exists is addressing the fact that negative qualities don't remain on a sheet as purely non-negative effects and possibilities, or buying it off with karma. This may vary with some groups, but I wouldn't suggest using that as a basis for providing general advice.

Mad Hamish

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« Reply #18 on: <12-06-12/0823:11> »

With the Restricted Gear qualities, as I stated before, Move-by-Wire rating 2 is a phenomenal waste of resources in creation, and having more than 2 passes is pretty pointless.

While I'm not sure I'd go foe Move By Wire the idea that more than 2 initiative passes is a waste is highly campaign dependent and I suspect that in the majority of campaigns 3 would be expected for a main combat character.



Pistols: It is quite all right as a skill, there is no point in taking only Automatics and going full-auto all the time (especially since not even the military trains to use full-auto that much as it's a waste of ammo).

Considering that a very large percentage of weapons in the automatics group are capable of semi auto fire amd sod all of them are limited to only be capable of fully automatic that's not a particularly good argument.
Automatics include machine pistols for concealable weapons and Battle Rifles which are up with all but the best of long-arms for long range combat

If you're only going to pick 1 firearms skill then Automatics is pretty clearly the best option.

Mad Hamish

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« Reply #19 on: <12-06-12/0828:26> »
Form-fitting body armour at 6/2 is as obvious as this, unless your group specifically ignores the description. It covers your torso, every limb, gloves, booties and skintight hood. You will be conspicuous while wearing the full suit, but more like a ninja or stage hand than geared up for war. That's milspec armour. On that note, if you are using War! (the book), get Softweave armour fabrics.

The actual wording is "comes with gloves, booties and a hood" there's nothing saying that the hood must absolutely be worn for the armour to be effective, the booties will typically be inside shoes or boots and if you're running you're probably wearing gloves of some sort.

It's at least campaign dependent how much you'd stand out with the full body suit.

Mad Hamish

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« Reply #20 on: <12-06-12/0846:33> »
Thanks for the replies! I appreciate all the input.

Are the mechanics really that unforgiving? The GM was pretty clear that we would start off at the beginning of our career, after reading the corebook, I assumed that meant like... street-gang stuff, low-level courier, etc.. Not exactly making high-level corp raids, yet, right?

Really that's all highly dependent upon what the GM is going to be doing.
Even street level games could have hugely different difficulty levels based on how the GM stats out & equips the opposition.

The best thing is to talk to your GM about what sort of game he's wanting to do in the campaign..

The cyberarm/sword combo. The way I read it, the arm itself has the base attributes of BOD 3, AGI 3, and STR 3.  The three enhancements boosts each of these to 6.  The book says that an attack made with that limb uses its own enhanced stats, rather than averaging with the whole body. So with Ambidextrous, couldn't I in theory, take semi-accurate potshots with the heavy pistol in my left hand as I close ground, and then hack apart what's left with the katana in my cybered right arm? Supposing, of course that I'm against a "reasonable" force for a starting runner. Obviously, I'd have a team to back me up in an optimal situation.

Swinging a sword is not just an arm action so you wouldn't get to just use the cyber arm attributes.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #21 on: <12-06-12/1000:45> »
quote author=Captain Karzak link=topic=9386.msg165992#msg165992 date=1354685236] Superthyroid Gland: from the core rulebook. This will boost your Agility, Body, and Strength by 1. [/quote]
It's not an unreasonable reading that it stacks with IP Boosters only in the Reaction-boosting capacity since you are not actually stacking Initiative enhancements. Seems like the intended non-stacking rules are to prevent stacking a level of Wired Reflexes with an eventual 1 or 2 Synaptic Booster for cumulative less Essence cost than Wired 2 and less Nuyen than Synaptic Booster 2 or 3. By that reading you also avoid the cost of the Reaction Enhancer. Reasonable question to ask the GM. 

The only things I can agree with on the attributes are Willpower 3 and the importance of Agility. Logic 3 is metahuman average, and IMO unless it is key to the concept all characters should at least be of average intellect.
It's a stretch to say if it's not central to the concept it should be average. Let's call a spade a spade: chargen is about creating a whole person with finite resources and making a choice to be average is, after all, a potential waste of points that could be better allocated elsewhere AND a choice, not a thing that requires a good story to "justify" it. A guy who gets by on his charisma and his speed could easily see no reason to develop his intellect that much. 

If you're optimizing an Elf for Agility, net hits on the melee attack roll are going to do more for your melee DV than Strength is. If you've got all the AGI you can get then getting more STR can be worth it.

Move-by-Wire rating 2 is a colossal waste.
Why? I assume the cost and need for Restricted Gear? 

Also I see 3 passes as ideal for a dedicated samurai. You may not need that many attacking actions, but having one to allocate as a full defense or using a martial arts maneuver or interrupt is a pretty good tactical option. 

Re: Edge - its worth as an investment depends on how often your GM refreshes it. Every run is bad especially if a run lasts multiple game sessions. Every game session is good. Every session with a chance to refresh mid-session under certain conditions makes it very valuable. Find out how your GM intends to run it and you'll be able to determine if Edge is something to invest in. 
Playability > verisimilitude.

Shadowjack

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« Reply #22 on: <12-06-12/1346:45> »
Samurai/Face is a fun combo.
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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #23 on: <12-06-12/1434:27> »

With the Restricted Gear qualities, as I stated before, Move-by-Wire rating 2 is a phenomenal waste of resources in creation, and having more than 2 passes is pretty pointless.

While I'm not sure I'd go foe Move By Wire the idea that more than 2 initiative passes is a waste is highly campaign dependent and I suspect that in the majority of campaigns 3 would be expected for a main combat character.



Pistols: It is quite all right as a skill, there is no point in taking only Automatics and going full-auto all the time (especially since not even the military trains to use full-auto that much as it's a waste of ammo).

Considering that a very large percentage of weapons in the automatics group are capable of semi auto fire amd sod all of them are limited to only be capable of fully automatic that's not a particularly good argument.
Automatics include machine pistols for concealable weapons and Battle Rifles which are up with all but the best of long-arms for long range combat

If you're only going to pick 1 firearms skill then Automatics is pretty clearly the best option.
Automatics is clearly broadest and for that reason best bang for your buck BUT if Pistols really appeal to you, you can always modify them to fire in bursts or full auto if you think you need that capability.


Superthyroid Gland: from the core rulebook. This will boost your Agility, Body, and Strength by 1.
It's not an unreasonable reading that it stacks with IP Boosters only in the Reaction-boosting capacity since you are not actually stacking Initiative enhancements. Seems like the intended non-stacking rules are to prevent stacking a level of Wired Reflexes with an eventual 1 or 2 Synaptic Booster for cumulative less Essence cost than Wired 2 and less Nuyen than Synaptic Booster 2 or 3. By that reading you also avoid the cost of the Reaction Enhancer. Reasonable question to ask the GM.

The only things I can agree with on the attributes are Willpower 3 and the importance of Agility. Logic 3 is metahuman average, and IMO unless it is key to the concept all characters should at least be of average intellect.
It's a stretch to say if it's not central to the concept it should be average. Let's call a spade a spade: chargen is about creating a whole person with finite resources and making a choice to be average is, after all, both sub-optimal AND a choice, not a thing that requires a good story to "justify" it. A guy who gets by on his charisma and his speed could easily see no reason to develop his intellect much.

If you're optimizing an Elf for Agility, net hits on the melee attack roll are going to do more for your melee DV than Strength is.

Move-by-Wire rating 2 is a colossal waste.
Why? I assume the cost and need for Restricted Gear?

Also I see 3 passes as ideal for a dedicated samurai. You may not need that many attacking actions, but having one to allocate as a full defense or using a martial arts maneuver or interrupt is a pretty good tactical option.

Re: Edge - its worth as an investment depends on how often your GM refreshes it. Every run is bad especially if a run lasts multiple game sessions. Every game session is good. Every session with a chance to refresh mid-session under certain conditions makes it very valuable. Find out how your GM intends to run it and you'll be able to determine if Edge is something to invest in.
« Last Edit: <12-06-12/1441:36> by Whiskeyjack »
Playability > verisimilitude.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #24 on: <12-06-12/1532:38> »
Here's how I look at it:

2 Passes: Dedicated Street Sam

1 Pass: Most others

3 Passes: "Munchie" Combat Monster

4 Passes: Super "Munchie" Combat Monster
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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #25 on: <12-06-12/1552:17> »
Having 2 passes is ultimately very little investment. That's Wired Reflexes 1, which is pretty cheap. Or low-Force Increase Reflexes, or the minimum PP devoted to that (sadly still too much). Or, hell, one dose of a combat drug. I tend towards "at least 2" with most characters excluding Technomancers and even they might carry an inhaler of drugs just in case.

There's not much reason for augmented mundane faces not to have 2 IP whether from drugs or wires, unless your face is only around to negotiate then sits the rest of the run out. Or combat adepts. Even hackers unless they're sitting in the van, and definitely AR hacker adepts, the former for survvability and the latter to do their shtick. Technomancers in the meat would need to get by with drugs of course and mages have to cast an easy spell.

Having 3+ is we're the big permanent investment happens IMO. More Essence for wires, much more money for synaptic boosters, both of which cut into the need for other ware and gear for mundanes. Too much PP as a pure adept, especially a noncombatant one but even a combat adept is looking at picking between no PP, no Magic from wires 3, or no money from booster 3. But of course mages will do just fine as usual. =P
Playability > verisimilitude.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #26 on: <12-06-12/1630:11> »
Improved Reflexes Adept Power is one of the few that is not over-priced. Each level costs less in Power Points than the equivalent cyberware implant (by .5 for levels 1 and 2 and a full point for level 3)
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Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #27 on: <12-06-12/1647:50> »
Improved Reflexes Adept Power is one of the few that is not over-priced. Each level costs less in Power Points than the equivalent cyberware implant (by .5 for levels 1 and 2 and a full point for level 3)
The real comparison to the Adept power is Synapic Boosters. Wired Reflexes 1 by itself burns more Essence than an optimized augment-adept would want to, and many of these adepts would want to add at least muscle toner as well.
Playability > verisimilitude.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #28 on: <12-06-12/1650:18> »
Improved Reflexes Adept Power is one of the few that is not over-priced. Each level costs less in Power Points than the equivalent cyberware implant (by .5 for levels 1 and 2 and a full point for level 3)
The real comparison to the Adept power is Synapic Boosters. Wired Reflexes 1 by itself burns more Essence than an optimized augment-adept would want to, and many of these adepts would want to add at least muscle toner as well.

That isn't "optimized". That is "munchie".
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Captain Karzak

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« Reply #29 on: <12-06-12/1903:40> »
Thanks for the replies! I appreciate all the input.

Are the mechanics really that unforgiving? The GM was pretty clear that we would start off at the beginning of our career, after reading the corebook, I assumed that meant like... street-gang stuff, low-level courier, etc.. Not exactly making high-level corp raids, yet, right?


Yes. It is very easy to get geeked in Shadowrun. And the rules are extremely complicated by the standards of the rather extensive number of other RGP's I've played and GM'ed. It is very easy to make a character that cannot really contribute. It is also very hard to tell if you are competent at something because some dicepools are very easy to inflate (past 30 dice) and some are very hard to develop (you'll never get past the teens).

Also, take a look at the argument in this thread over Sinner + Erased. Some GM's will choose to aggravate the Shadowrun game system's problems by inflicting infinite revenge upon you for having negative qualities. Some of the stupidest conversations I've ever witnessed on this message board are about GM's screwing their players over negative qualities. It's very hard to recommend negative qualities, because we don't know your GM. He may be a sane and reasonable fellow. Or he may be an asshat that only GM's to powertrip over his players, and will screw you super hard no matter what you choose.

For what it's worth I think that not being able to safely tap your character's edge pool is ass and there is almost no circumstance under which Bad Luck isn't a horrible choice. Edge is often employed in 2 ways: (1) to save your life in a dire situation. (2) To occasional achieve good results in areas outside your character's main area of focus. Edge exists to make you more versatile, more reliable and to surmount overwhelming odds. It exists to make you have heroic moments. Does this sound like a resource you'd really want to abstain from?

Anyway I want to clarify a few things for you, OP.

(1) If you are a street sam, Initiative is your most important stat. It is very, very hard for competent shooters to miss their target in ranged combat, so Initiative determines whether you go before the bad guys riddle you and your pals with bullets. Surprise is also devastatingly effective, and gaining surprise or avoiding it both require you succeed on opposed initiative rolls. Initiative is derived from your intuition and reaction scores, therefore you want these as high as possible.

(2) Agility is the key stat for many of your most useful abilities. It is hugely efficient for you to have a very high agility. It is still less important than initiative so long as you are still competent at combat. Obviously if you suck at fighting, it hardly matters if you go first or last.

(3) I recommended Move-by-wire 2 under the assumption that you wanted to be a Street Sam & Face. We are using the ginormous reaction bonus that MBW 2 + Reaction Enhancers + (arguably) Superthyroid gland to max out your reaction stat, while requiring the minimum investment of BP for your unaugmented reaction. This frees up points that can then be shifted to get your charisma to Elf levels of awesomeness. If you decide Charisma isn't all that important to you then maybe you can just replace MBW 2 with Wired reflexes.

(4) Automatic weapons are awesome. I don't give a damn how real-life militaries train their troops to shoot. That has nothing to do with Shadowrun. Being able to fire Long narrow bursts+ Short narrow bursts (with appropriate recoil compensation) in the same initiative pass is devastating. Automatic weapons can inflict huge amounts of damage and have great accuracy at range. If you want a small gun, automatics also governs Machine pistols - which are basically like regular pistols, only with better ammo capacity and superior capacity for recoil compensation because they can accept gas vent accessories. But if all you want is a good one-handed range weapon, SMG's are excellent.

(5) Pistols suck. If your only ranged weapon skill is pistols, then what is your plan when people with real weapons are shooting at you from a distance (like from the higher floors of a building)? Or an aerial drone, or a spirit with Line-of-sight powers? Pistol ranges are absolute garbage. They are a bit more concealable than say a machine pistol, but a cyberware/weapons scanners are cheap, common, and they doen't care how well concealed your pistol is. Low-tech, low resource organizations can still go with a physical pat-down search - which dramatically reduces the effectiveness of an item's concealability rating.

(6) There is no "intelligence" stat. Your character's mental acuity is best described by the average your your four mental attributes. I have recommended a VERY high charisma, a high intuition (the highest value that is practical), a very low logic and probably an average willpower. This means you have a mind that is well above average. Of course if you have an Asshat GM, all that will matter is whatever ability is lowest. I can't help you if your GM is like that. Condolences?

(7) Sinner + Erased is great if ever want to be respectable. You have all the benefits of real citizenship with the back up an AI keeping the bad stuff off your record. If your character ever aspires to leave the shadows after striking it rich, this is a very sensible combo of qualities. If you have people to impress who live outside the shadows this is a very sensible combo.

(Eight) Nearly everyone considers stuff like Form Fitting Body Armor and PPP to be discrete forms of protection, because that is the entire F-ing point of their existence.

Edit: grammer, accidental smiley face (wtf).
« Last Edit: <12-06-12/1919:14> by Captain Karzak »