[Shadowjack]

One aspect of Shadowrun that often gets a bad rep is melee. I realize this thread won't prove melee and ranged are balanced, but I think it can shed some light on which weapon to choose for your character.

One major aspect of game balancing in Shadowrun is item cost. When I first came back to Shadowrun I thought like this, "No Daichi has the best stats, why bother with other weapons?" Even 3000 nuyen seems really inexpensive. However, a knife is almost free and you can use that 3000 nuyen on something else which could be more useful and practical than the No Daichi.

I work on my own rpg and a big part of my game is the choice of many weapons which all have different strengths and weaknesses, so it's really up to the player to choose which one is best for their character. Shadowrun doesn't really work like that. You can use any weapon you like, but some simply have better stats than others. It's often a question of stealth versus raw power.

So in a way, it looks like the melee weapons were poorly designed. But when you start to realize the true value in every nuyen you spend, you'll really begin to see why someone would take an inferior weapon in favor of saving nuyen. In the last campaign I did my character bought a No Daichi during the game and it was really awesome. But after a while I had saved up almost enough money to buy a very powerful and expensive piece of cyberware. If I hadn't bought the No Daichi, I could have got the cyberware right then, but instead, I had to do another run(risking death) before I could afford the cyberware.

This line of thought is really helpful when reading Street Legends. As you can see, many of the characters use melee weapons which are not the most powerful of their class. When I first read that I though, "Hmm, how odd that someone this powerful is using a weaker melee weapon, even though he/she has a decent melee dice pool". But even Street Legends need to choose how to spend their money, and it's not as simple as buying the most powerful weapons all the time.

At the end of the day, just use whichever weapon you think you'll have the most fun with. If you always take the same weapons, you probably won't have as much fun as someone who changes things up. And if you put some thought into it, you can often find justification for using the inferior weapons.

[Kot]

What if they choose by their personal preferences, not arbitrary stats? I guess that's because if you look into it, the characters can't see stats. We can't see stats in the real world either.
Also, take into account the fact, that game rules are simplified enough to allow fast play. They can't take into account many different facts, like that a sword is pretty worthless against an axe - you can't really parry an overhead strike. The same with a spear thrust, which is also very difficult to counter... Etc. The rules are there to make combat fun. Saying "weapon x is the best stat-wise, so everyone should use it" is borderlining on munchkinism.

[Shadowjack]

Yes, that's my point I think people should use the weapons they will have fun with, not always take the most powerful one. I've been playing rpgs for decades and I always use the weapons I feel like using. I just felt in Shadowrun there are clear winners and most people seem to just automatically take them because they're better. Many people will probably never use a tonfa, but if they did, it could be a lot more fun and it adds more color to the character too. That said, it's still okay if people really like to use a particular weapon(for whatever reason).

[Mirikon]

Whatever weapon you use (whether it is melee or ranged) as your primary weapon is, in part, a reflection of your character. Whether it is the Predator or the Sakura Fubuki, the AK-97 or the Alpha, the katana or the vibroblade sword it is a reflection of the character. Use your character's gear to help turn a collection of stats into a breathing person.

[Shadowjack]

Well said, Mirikon. That's how I like to play too. Even with the No Daichi I bought, it was because my character had an extensive history with swords. I'll probably try a bunch of different melee weapons in Shadowrun over time.

[JustADude]

Yes, that's my point I think people should use the weapons they will have fun with, not always take the most powerful one. I've been playing rpgs for decades and I always use the weapons I feel like using. I just felt in Shadowrun there are clear winners and most people seem to just automatically take them because they're better. Many people will probably never use a tonfa, but if they did, it could be a lot more fun and it adds more color to the character too. That said, it's still okay if people really like to use a particular weapon(for whatever reason).

Agreed.

Me, I tend to turn my nose up at "martial arts" weapons in general since, in the real world, they end up second-best do something designed from the ground up as a weapon. After all, they pretty much all started out as tools that were pressed into service because someone took the real weapons away. This is, mind you, even if the book's stats say the martial arts impliment should be better than the true weapon.

I'll also never touch a Katana... or any of it's variants like the Nodaichi.

Japanese sword designs are a bunch of over-hyped pieces of crap created in a culture culture that had very limited supplies of poor-quality iron, which meant that even the best armor had massive gaps in the metallic coverage, and the typical line soldier didn't have any armor worth speaking of at all. Oh, yes, and the steel they produced was so crap-tastic they had to work it forever with a hammer to get out the impurities... the vaunted "folding" everyone seems to get a chubby over.

Europeans, on the other hand, had plentiful supplies of steel and were able to develop armor that had much tinier gaps, and proliferate some form of metallic armor to even the grunts on the front lines. The result was weapons designed to go through armor, not just around it, and cause massive blunt-force trauma even if the wearer was in a full suit of articulated plate. Yes, even the traditional one-handed Arming Sword used with a shield.

Oh, and lets not forget the differences in armor penetration between an axe and any type of sword. Long story short... a big, two-handed axe designed for man-slaying pretty much wins by a landslide.

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So... yeah... sorry for the rant, guys. Essentially, I'm trying to say that I feel very strongly that the only reason the stats are the way they are is because way too many people have a hard-on for Japanese culture and Catalyst is pandering to them. If they're going to lump dozens of European, Middle-Eastern and Asian swords... with often drastically different handling characteristics... under the heading "sword," then there's no reason for the Japanese types to be special little snowflakes.

Whatever weapon you use (whether it is melee or ranged) as your primary weapon is, in part, a reflection of your character. Whether it is the Predator or the Sakura Fubuki, the AK-97 or the Alpha, the katana or the vibroblade sword it is a reflection of the character. Use your character's gear to help turn a collection of stats into a breathing person.

Very true. So very, very true.

[Mirikon]

JustADude, I'd like to make one point about your rant that you may have forgotten. The Japanese may not have had plentiful steel for armor, but they did use paper armor that proved to be as effective as steel armor. The paper armor went away the same time as steel armor did, because firearms had progressed to the point that the armor was effectively useless.

As for comparisons between European and Japanese swords, European swords tended to be wider and heavier, while Japanese swords (and Chinese swords, to a certain extent) were thinner and lighter. When using a European sword, the emphasis is on power, while with Japanese swords the emphasis is on speed and accuracy. To put it in terms of firearms, a European sword would be like a shotgun, while a Japanese sword would be like a pistol.

[Shadowjack]

I enjoyed the rant. One thing to keep in mind though is that the katanas and no daichis in Shadowrun are made from modern materials. I purchased quite a few swords irl and one of them was a "real" katana. Known as a full tang katana for having a single piece of steel which includes the blade and runs all the way down through the handle. I tested the swords out on a very large box from a 70" tv I had bought at the time and the katana seemed to have tremendous hitting power over the other swords. Mind you, the other swords were more for decoration but some of them did have heavy blades and they were all capable of killing someone with ease.

One thing I can say about high quality katanas is when you hold one, you can really feel the killing power. As far as bypassing armor goes, I really can't speak on that but I will say that like an axe, a very heavy sword has a much better chance of tearing through armor than a lighter sword. I also had a cheap Chinese butterfly sword and it was by far the quickest of my collection. I don't think it would penetrate armor very well but it would be very difficult to avoid as the blade is extremely fast. Also, keep in mind that Asians tend to be smaller so it was more practical for them to use smaller weaponry historically.(even though I believe humans in general were much smaller back then overall)

[Kot]

As far as bypassing armor goes (...)

They cut through chain mail. I've seen it with my own eyes... There goes the "inferior materials" hypothesis.

The thing is, difference between Asian and European weapon designs is cultural and economic. Europeans got their way from the ancient Greece and Rome, mixed with "barbarian" influences. The whole idea of knighthood as a base for warfare is following the Roman equites, hence the sword&lance domination. In Asian culture weapon choices are more flexible, and their idea of warfare differs greatly, as it is based on a wholly different set of rules and beliefs.

[Mournclaw]

What if they choose by their personal preferences, not arbitrary stats? I guess that's because if you look into it, the characters can't see stats. We can't see stats in the real world either.
Also, take into account the fact, that game rules are simplified enough to allow fast play. They can't take into account many different facts, like that a sword is pretty worthless against an axe - you can't really parry an overhead strike. The same with a spear thrust, which is also very difficult to counter... Etc. The rules are there to make combat fun. Saying "weapon x is the best stat-wise, so everyone should use it" is borderlining on munchkinism.

A little correction there; You *can* parry an overhead axe strike with a sword. The point is parrying exactly, not blocking. You don't have to stop it, you just move the trajectory a bit. And about countering the spear strikes, it's not really that much more difficult if you train the right techniques. Of course if you just train for fighting against swords and clubs...

And a little bit for the katana rant also. Consider this: they had poorer quality material so they had to make better techniques of smithing. Give the better materials for the better technique and what would the result obviously be?

[redwolf]

o.k i'v got 2 replicas 1 katana and 1 rapier the katana is made in Taiwan(and is up to the mill spec standart of ww2 as i understand) and after 17 years still got the edge the rapier well that made of toledo steel  and after 10 years lost it and need to be resharpened so i do believe that the tech' was important. btw if folding is so over rated way do modern blade smith use it today. well that my 2 ny

[Novocrane]

the katana is made in Taiwan(and is up to the mill spec standart of ww2 as i understand)

Wasn't that when they were pumping out lesser quality blades?

[Mirikon]

the katana is made in Taiwan(and is up to the mill spec standart of ww2 as i understand)

Wasn't that when they were pumping out lesser quality blades?

Yes, lesser quality blades, and the katana still kept its edge for the better part of a decade longer than the rapier.

[emsquared]

I'll also never touch a Katana... or any of it's variants like the Nodaichi.

Japanese sword designs are a bunch of over-hyped pieces of crap created in a culture culture that had very limited supplies of poor-quality iron, which meant that even the best armor had massive gaps in the metallic coverage, and the typical line soldier didn't have any armor worth speaking of at all. Oh, yes, and the steel they produced was so crap-tastic they had to work it forever with a hammer to get out the impurities... the vaunted "folding" everyone seems to get a chubby over.

C'mon, this little rant belies either a poor understanding of logistics, martial combat and physics or an over-extended desire to be "counter", JAD (and I doubt it's any of the former). You're making fun of them for making a tool for a specific application with limited resources. That's pretty invalid. And while I admittedly get nerd-gasms over slicing pumpkins with katanas (who doesn't?), and probably romanticize samurai and japanese culture in general, the fact is they are very well designed and high quality weapons, especially considering - as you admit - they were working with crap iron, and there is a reason beyond cult status for their popularity. The fact that they came from a society lacking resources or that it's a weapon not designed to combat full-plate armor doesn't make them "over-hyped", if anything the former makes them all the more worthy of praise.

Just like everyone, they designed their weapons based on the materials they had and the purpose of the tool. And from the core, lamination and hardening to curve of the blade and the angle of incidence of the blade with the crossguard/handle, they're made to maximize trauma caused to flesh with minimal motion and force (they're the hollow point of swords - so of course you don't shoot hollow points at someone wearing body armor, but it's still a great tool for it's application), i.e. they use physics not mass - just like all Asian martial arts, designed for efficient motions that can be transitioned in the same motion into another strike or defense and not tire the user, or for use in combination with hand-to-hand attacks, as well as being capable of piercing with a stabbing motion as well as any spear.

You mock the folding technique and quality of the steel, but both resulted in a weapon that was flexible and could maintain a sharp edge, even through the chaos of combat, edge to edge contact, or use by an unskilled combatant. The only instance where a two-handed axe is better than a sword, or any other melee weapon, is if you have the sheer mass and training to use it, it's not a weapon of skill or speed, so your assertion that it wins by a landslide is null and void unless stated under heavily conditioned circumstances (or unless "Deadliest Warrior" says it is, of course) - just as a similar statement about a katana or mace would be. They are weapons designed for specific purposes, each which they excel at beyond the others applied similarly.

Which all relates directly to this thread. Concealability, Reach, or Style - what are your needs and what gets your rocks off?

[All4BigGuns]

I like them and I'll use them on characters, but even I have to admit that katana and other Japanese weapons are over-used on RPG characters.