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In Debt Negative Quality

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Kat9

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« Reply #75 on: <12-18-12/2044:04> »
Kat9, your answer was made of gold.  Great stuff.

Any other ideas?  I may need to do something like this soon, going to start up a new Shadowrun game.

I sent you a PM.

Glyph

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« Reply #76 on: <12-18-12/2340:49> »
@Glyph That's an interesting point... from a rules perspective it is balanced. But from a role playing perspective I still dislike the idea of paying Karma to remove the debt. Perhaps a good solution would be to owe an amount of money equivalent to the build points you gained from the negative quality. On top of that, there could be weekly interest. So you would be coming out behind in most cases, thus justifying the extra build points. Also, it would make sense from a role playing perspective.
From a roleplaying perspective, I see it like the example of the restaurant guy who is always being pressured to do favors for the underworld syndicate that gave him a loan once.  It's not getting rid of the debt per se; the money does that.  What it represents is delicately attempting to extricate yourself from under the thumb of the shady characters who loaned you the money because they wanted leverage on you.

Another option might be to allow the cash for Karma rule specifically for buying off the flaw.  Or you could use what seems to be a fairly common house rule; In Debt as a zero-point quality, where you just get the money, and only have to pay the money (plus interest) back to get out of the debt.

JustADude

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« Reply #77 on: <12-19-12/0616:03> »
@JustADude: Have you ever told your GM, "No thanks, I don't want to do what you just told me to do"? Are you also going to argue that you shouldn't have an enemy because you didn't pick it out at character generation? So you pissed off the mob, but not to worry! You can just tell your GM to stuff it, you are fine with what you took at character gen? Not to be personal (but I'm about to be), but are you daft? Your concept is basically to tell the GM how to run his game. I don't know if this is how you play, or if you are just on here to cause problems, but that wouldn't be accepted at any table i've ever sat at.

After the game starts you can still receive negative qualities (addiction rules anyone?). You don't get jack squat for it either. The GM doesn't even have to be fair about it. He can give you an enemy bigger then your debt for paying it off too soon. And he can do it because he is this thing called the GM that runs the freaking game.

First off, if I were you I wouldn't go insulting people's intelligence, then go on to make a reply that has nothing to do in any way, shape, or form to the content of the post I was insulting them over. That is, of course, because I hate doing things that are "ironic." You may be different.

Go back and read what I said again. You'll see that I never said that the GM can't add qualities as he/she sees fit, which means your facetious examples have exactly jack shit to do with what I'm talking about. I'm simply saying that ACCORDING TO THE RULES FOR REMOVING NEGATIVE QUALITIES, the GM can GIVE YOU THE OPPORTUNITY to buy off the quality. The rule does not say they can FORCE YOU to spend the Karma do so.

It's written like this because in 99% of the situations, it's things like a player deciding they want their character to still be struggling with Alcoholism even though they've been managing to do a good job of keeping clean and sober. The abuse of In Debt is an ugly side-effect of that phrasing.

Oh, and down at the bottom you'll noticed I even said that the hole needs to be patched by the GM, which any person paying half a lick of attention should take to mean that I am NOT of the belief that this loophole should remain open.

Now, how about an apology?

A few examples of numerous ways it can still pop up if it isn't bought off. Now, you could claim that it's a "house rule" to keep the quality in play, but I'd like to point out that it never states you can actually remove the debt or pay it completely off without getting rid of the quality.

The phrase "at least" when talking about making your monthly payment very clearly means you are allowed to pay more than the maintenance payment of interest. As anyone who have ever had any sort of credit-card or other loan should know, anything beyond the interest payment goes against the principle of the loan unless you're assuming, rather disingenuously, that the extra is just a gift to the person that counts for nothing.

The things you mentioned are less House Rule and more in the realm of "The GM screwing with a player that deserves it for abusing a loophole until he coughs up the Karma."

I'd actually just be considering more along the lines of a House Rule making it just "a thing" rather than a Negative Quality. Players can get the money and debt like normal, but no BP changes hands. I like your idea better, though.
« Last Edit: <12-19-12/0642:08> by JustADude »
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WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #78 on: <12-19-12/1001:19> »
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The phrase "at least" when talking about making your monthly payment very clearly means you are allowed to pay more than the maintenance payment of interest. As anyone who have ever had any sort of credit-card or other loan should know, anything beyond the interest payment goes against the principle of the loan unless you're assuming, rather disingenuously, that the extra is just a gift to the person that counts for nothing.
Modern day, yes, but who knows what banking or underworld standards are in the 2070s? Can you even pay off the principle from In Debt? Nothing says that you can. It says you have to pay the interest owed at least. Extra could just as easily go toward next months interest, leaving the character always in debt until certain terms allow him to pay off the principle (such as him having paid karma on the quality...oh my). Now, you can disagree with what I've said, but let's just take a gander before we go down that road.
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The things you mentioned are less House Rule and more in the realm of "The GM screwing with a player that deserves it for abusing a loophole until he coughs up the Karma."
Qualities are, by definition, an innate part of the character. Keeping a quality relevant to the character is not GM Screwery, it's merely following what the rules state. A character that owes 0¥ is not In Debt. Debt, and being in it, is in know way an innate part of the character any longer.

Now, let's look further into what the books say:
SR4A, pg. 271
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Negative Qualities
If the gamemaster approves, a character can work off a negative quality by undertaking severe changes as appropriate to the quality. For example, a character with an Addiction quality must work hard to kick the habit, resisting the temptation to relapse for a significant period (chosen by the gamemaster). If the gamemaster feels that a character has made the necessary changes to shrug off a negative quality, he can allow that character to pay twice the quality’s BP cost to remove it.
First sentence, making severe changes appropriate to the quality (such as paying off the principle of a debt) is subject to gamemaster approval before it can even be undertaken. If the gamemaster does not approve of the "working off" being taken, he doesn't have to approve it.

Runner's Companion, pg. 102
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NEGATIVE QUALITIES
As with Positive qualities, Negative qualities can be chosen at the start of play. With the gamemaster’s approval, Negative qualities
may be bought o with Karma per the rules on p. 271, SR4A. If the character does not possess the requisite Karma, she may
have to wait.
Also note that this expenditure does not encompass the Costs of any associated augmentations, medical treatments, schooling, etc. that the gamemaster may require. Additionally, the gamemaster may decide that certain qualities can only be removed after roleplaying through their resolution (such as removal of a dependent or curing a mental illness).
The underlined portion shows that the qualities in RC (such as In Debt) still require karma to buy off and follow the rules from pg. 271 of SR4A (the first quote). The italicized portion makes it clear that other costs (such as paying off the principle) are in addition to the karma cost required. In other words, paying off the principle is part of buying off the negative quality, it's an additional cost. If the player chooses to not pay of the principle as part of buying off the quality, then the gamemaster is free to, and should, make sure the quality has not been bought off. After all, that's what the character is wanting.

None of my proposals were instances of the GM screwing the player, they are instances that show the method you proposed is flawed at it's core. If the player chooses to pay off the principle to get rid of the quality (which requires karma and nuyen expenditure), the GM has to approve, and the player has to wait until he has the requisite karma (blatantly stated in the rules). If the character is choosing to pay off the principle and not get rid of the quality, he isn't taking all the steps to get rid of the quality.

This is no different than an addict going through rehab, not buying off the quality, and relapsing as soon as he hits the street. Too bad, so sad, here's your next fix. It's no different than the brain surgery not working for TLE-x when karma is not paid. It's no different than the Uncouth guys etiquette training, not taking when karma isn't paid. The fix only works, if it's the full fix, which requires karma plain and simple.
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I'm simply saying that ACCORDING TO THE RULES FOR REMOVING NEGATIVE QUALITIES, the GM can GIVE YOU THE OPPORTUNITY to buy off the quality. The rule does not say they can FORCE YOU to spend the Karma do so.
It's not a case of the GM forcing the player to buy off a quality. That's implying that the GM forced the player to pay off the principle. It's a matter of the GM forcing the player to either A.)buy off the quality or B.)not buy off the quality instead of trying to use a flawed loop hole to get stuck in the middle. The bottom line here is that the changes to buy off the quality (paying off the principle) are only available with GM approval. The player can only do it when the GM agrees, and, by the rules, if he has the karma required to buy off the hindrance. The GM sure does have the right to say, you can only pay off the principle if you buy off the quality, and force the player to do both at the same time. It's completely within the rules, as is not getting rid of the quality if only one portion is done.

Kat9

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« Reply #79 on: <12-19-12/1023:26> »
[lot of words, lot of quotes, lot of notations]

Awesome breakdown and great post. +1 to you sir and or madam.

ZombieAcePilot

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« Reply #80 on: <12-19-12/1655:44> »
Perhaps you shouldn't argue the case of things you don't believe in. If I were, for example, to make a page of racist comments and then add a note at the bottom that I am really not a racist... which are you going to believe? You didn't start with a warning that you were playing devils advocate. You argued for the cheapest crap I have ever heard of. In line with the above I will not be issuing an apology.

JustADude

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« Reply #81 on: <12-19-12/2328:11> »
Perhaps you shouldn't argue the case of things you don't believe in. If I were, for example, to make a page of racist comments and then add a note at the bottom that I am really not a racist... which are you going to believe? You didn't start with a warning that you were playing devils advocate. You argued for the cheapest crap I have ever heard of. In line with the above I will not be issuing an apology.

*sigh* Once more with the insults and the totally off-base, inflammatory "examples" that have nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

I mean, seriously, by your "logic" a police officer that disagrees with a law shouldn't enforce the law even though it is, in fact, the law.

*BLAH*BLAH*BLAH*

Wells, dude, if you're going to assume that features of the world in the 2070s are just massively and randomly different in ways that make absolutely no sense based on extrapolation of current financial practices, then what the hell is the point?

As for the rest of it... I really don't give enough of a crap about the issue to waste my time banging my head against a wall again in another futile attempt at having anthing resembling a proper debate with you.
« Last Edit: <12-20-12/0022:40> by JustADude »
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #82 on: <12-19-12/2336:35> »
Basically what it boils down to is the fact that since it's GM discretion, the GM doesn't HAVE to charge the karma if he doesn't want to. If he wants, he can drop any character's Negatives with just the effort put into it or--if he really wants to, though even I wouldn't--just drop them with nothing done.
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

Crunch

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« Reply #83 on: <12-19-12/2346:37> »
Basically what it boils down to is the fact that since it's GM discretion, the GM doesn't HAVE to charge the karma if he doesn't want to. If he wants, he can drop any character's Negatives with just the effort put into it or--if he really wants to, though even I wouldn't--just drop them with nothing done.

Right and that would be a reasonable, albeit very generous, house rule. By the RAW however removing a negative quality requires paying the Karma and doing the Roleplay with GM approval.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #84 on: <12-19-12/2349:34> »
Basically what it boils down to is the fact that since it's GM discretion, the GM doesn't HAVE to charge the karma if he doesn't want to. If he wants, he can drop any character's Negatives with just the effort put into it or--if he really wants to, though even I wouldn't--just drop them with nothing done.

Right and that would be a reasonable, albeit very generous, house rule. By the RAW however removing a negative quality requires paying the Karma and doing the Roleplay with GM approval.

The whole point is that being GM discretion it is a house rule to do it at all (or being generous with it, an optional rule like you called it). Technically by "RAW" you can't get rid of them at all.
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

Crunch

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« Reply #85 on: <12-19-12/2352:49> »
Basically what it boils down to is the fact that since it's GM discretion, the GM doesn't HAVE to charge the karma if he doesn't want to. If he wants, he can drop any character's Negatives with just the effort put into it or--if he really wants to, though even I wouldn't--just drop them with nothing done.

Right and that would be a reasonable, albeit very generous, house rule. By the RAW however removing a negative quality requires paying the Karma and doing the Roleplay with GM approval.

The whole point is that being GM discretion it is a house rule to do it at all (or being generous with it, an optional rule like you called it). Technically by "RAW" you can't get rid of them at all.

Page 271 of SR4A would seem to disagree with you. It is in fact the RAW answer to the question.

1) Get GM Approval
2) Roleplay
3) Pay 2x Karma

It's very simple, not at all optional and in no way a house rule. There are a dozen house or optional rules you could use instead, but the RAW is pretty clear. I'm really not understanding your objection to the RAW on p 271.

Sacredsouless

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« Reply #86 on: <12-20-12/0437:24> »
Okay, I think we ran to the conclusion of this. Probably did long ago. Frankly from what I can tell, its all GM discretion. They MAY chose any option of, or combination of, having the player roleplay it out, spending Karma, or spending nuyen. So your group can roll as it likes on this one it seems. I'm just gonna have fun and watch it all play out.