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Battling the ultimate PC

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RHat

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« Reply #45 on: <12-25-12/2135:54> »
My bad, i'm still learning my way through Shadowrun, so I still don't have all qualities and gear and whatnot memorized.

Which is fine for the mistake on the quality.  However, the plan you outlined is the sort of thing that reeks of a DM just trying to punish a player for petty purposes.  It provides him no real opportunity to avoid this and isn't a sensible result of his in-game actions - whereas corp strike teams and similar very well could be.

The OP has asked how to challenge this PC, which is not something your suggestion does.  If the question was "how do I take his stuff away", your answer would be technically correct; however, the true answer would be "Don't".

If something happens to a player's character because the GM has just decided it is going to happen and the players have no true opportunity to resist, that is a bad thing.
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #46 on: <12-25-12/2142:16> »
I would first like to know whether you are actively trying to kill his character for good or just getting rid of some of his gear.
In the former case, having him falling (either from a building or a plane) would make his armor pretty useless. Making him swim would also force him to let go of his military armor. Without the armor, he's gonna have a bad time. Simply parting him from his arcane arrestor would give mages an edge against him again. The best way to put him down permanently will be with unconventional weaponry (fire/heat, extreme cold, electricity, pressure, poison gas, etc). 

If you just want to part him his gear, using sonic weaponry will do wonders, like you found out. Also, like Tagz noted here, having some routine patrol pull him over should do the trick too.
RHat also noted that his cyberware can be vulnerable, if he's using any.
Here, I would suggest that you trick him into a work, something along these lines:
  • Call him for an exclusive job (bodyguard some VIP, for instance)
  • Ask him to meet the target in a room (or make him wait in said room for whatever other reason)
  • Seal the room and put him to sleep with gas or crank up/down the heat
  • Tell him that he'll only live by stripping naked and putting all his stuff in a box
  • Special team enters, gets the box and knocks him out
  • He awakens with a message: "Next time, I won't be so kind to you -Villain McEvil"
You could put the whole group there just for extra evilish fun.

Then again, more of his backstory would help to brew the exact way to put him back with his char naked. What corps has he run against? What enemies could be well aware of him as a dangerous enemy? Who could be actively hunting him down?

Doing this drek is a good way to lose all your players and might just get you hit, depending on who it was done to.
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Black

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« Reply #47 on: <12-25-12/2206:35> »
I still think the best answer is to talk to him.

I mean everyone has had some fun coming up 101 ideas to kills him, showing pretty much that heavy armour does not make a character a good/effective shadowrunner.

Most major league bad guys are not going to be scared by some lone loon in heavy armor.  They can just call the cops and Lone Star will take him down.  Maybe not the street officers, but the HRT with magic back up, spirits, numerious snipers, heavy weapons experts etc?  It will be messy, but he will go down.  And then thats the end of his story.  Even if his not killed, his bound to attract too much attention, making him to hot to do business with.

Basically, combat orientated one-trick ponies are pretty limited when it comes to anything but a major fight... but then again, if your campaign is pink mowhawk, this character probably rocks.  It will come down to the style of the campaign.
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #48 on: <12-25-12/2225:32> »
Yeah, talking to him is best.

All-in-all, it sounds to me that this is what he enjoys, and the question is more of an attempt at getting ideas for "teaching him the 'right' way to have fun".
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Glyph

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« Reply #49 on: <12-26-12/0226:25> »
I think the biggest weakness of military armor is the same weakness that a gyro-mounted machine gun or an assault cannon has.  Namely, that walking around with any of those things on the streets of a city will get paramilitary assets mobilized against you.  I mean, a shadowrunner can walk around in semi-obvious armor such as armored jackets, and carry concealed weapons with fake licences and concealed carry permits, in most places.  But articulated military armor?  No.  It is really only useful in situations such as mercenary engagements, assaults on extraterritorial corporate compounds, and utterly lawless areas such as the Barrens (although in the latter, such gear will attract undue attention from both the gangs and would-be thieves).

I think going out of your way to damage or destroy his armor would be kind of dickish.  But letting him where it everywhere is being too permissive.  The presence of dragons and magic, and a society that is more fractured than ours, notwithstanding, the game world should still follow some logical rules.  Imagine the reaction someone would get today if they were walking around in miltech body armor.  Unless you're Phoenix Jones, that just won't fly.

I would let your entire group know that you will be trying to give the everyday world of the 2070's a bit more verisimilitude, so things like wearing body armor to go get a latte, or taking your Barrett sniper rifle onto the subway, will have more consequences in the future.

Mara

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« Reply #50 on: <12-26-12/0253:56> »
So..is the wireless on his armour enabled? If not: activator Nanites. Now, you basicly turn off the air-filtration
on his suit, and hit him with neurostun gas grenades.

Does his armour or him have sound dampers? Barghests as para-security.

Fight in close quarters on top of an elevator where he is having to provide cover while the group's hacker
tries to stop the enemy Spider from disabling the safeties, brakes, etc on the elevator...


GiraffeShaman

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« Reply #51 on: <12-26-12/2306:06> »
You set the conditions of the shadowruns. A character being nearly invincible is only useful as you make it. You can give characters with social skills the chance to shine by having missions where it's difficult to sneak in even a heavy pistol, much less military grade armor. In missions like this, even just appearing vaguely like a normal is a huge advantage to the shadowrunner. Alternatively, you can purposely cater to the tank with a Tarantino fest, or mix and match.

Shadowrunners are all extremely vulnerable due to who they know. Contacts are pretty much their most useful asset and there is just no way to protect them all 24/7, even if you wanted to. And even if you have a hardheaded runner willing to let his contacts all be iced, this is a team game, and the team would almost certainly be upset if their contacts were being kidnapped or leaned on.Of course, it really shouldn't even have to get that far if you are talking to your players.




nightslasthero

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« Reply #52 on: <12-28-12/1546:13> »
Having him go against mages or spirits where his Armor is useless would be a good idea.

Have a run go bad because he was noticed in military grade Armor. (The scientist they were hired to get evacuates the building instead of staying put)

Have the organization that he got the Armor from come after him. A nice explosion as he gets in his car. (just don't kill him. Hurt him bad and maybe destroy the armor)

jamesfirecat

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« Reply #53 on: <12-28-12/1649:03> »
Having him go against mages or spirits where his Armor is useless would be a good idea.

Have a run go bad because he was noticed in military grade Armor. (The scientist they were hired to get evacuates the building instead of staying put)

Have the organization that he got the Armor from come after him. A nice explosion as he gets in his car. (just don't kill him. Hurt him bad and maybe destroy the armor)



On the last suggestion, once again, would you suggest destroying a mages foci if you felt a particular combat Mage was over powered in your game?

Ympulse

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« Reply #54 on: <12-28-12/1807:18> »
On the last suggestion, once again, would you suggest destroying a mages foci if you felt a particular combat Mage was over powered in your game?
Not destroying outright - I would use it as a plot hook, some Johnson got wind that said 'Runner is using an Artifact of tremendous power (even though it's a +3 Power focus from Bob's magic galleria) and went off running with the idea and has it "acquired"

But to bring it back on-topic, I'm in the "talk to him" camp. Playing the Vindictive GM is a surefire way to stop GMing games for lack of players.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #55 on: <12-28-12/2314:40> »
Have the organization that he got the Armor from come after him. A nice explosion as he gets in his car. (just don't kill him. Hurt him bad and maybe destroy the armor)
On the last suggestion, once again, would you suggest destroying a mages foci if you felt a particular combat Mage was over powered in your game?
Y'know, this I really seriously don't get.  This isn't the HERO System, where points gained are meant to be your points forever, (and even then, within certain strictures); this isn't ... y'know, I don't know of any other examples similar to that.  Every other system I've gamed in, if there's an object or item, even one you spent weeks and months and years slaving over, spending XP/Karma on to create or bind to you, by the very nature of the system and the game it can be destroyed.  I don't care if you 'bought it with BP'; should your ammo be expected to never be expended because you bought it with the money you bought with your build-points at the very beginning of the game?

No.  Every toy your character might have, from the Eye of Vecna to the Arrow of Red Dragon Slaying to Iron Man power armor to a powerful magic focus that a mage spent karma to bond, is an item, toy, object, or gizmo that can be taken away.  Yes, a player has a right to feel picked on if s/he's the only one whose favorite toys keep getting wrecked - or, very possibly, the player should look at how they're playing, to expose those items to danger out of proportion.  Yes, the GM should take the player aside if a particular something is proving to provide an overwhelming advantage; see link in my .sig to a statement about what game balance means in Shadowrun terms.

But would I suggest the destruction of an item that's turing the game into 'MyCharacterRun'?  Hell, yes.  I would suggest the destruction of any and every piece of equipment the opposition could (and here's the key term) reasonably get their hands on, if that's what told the story better.  Hell, as I recall in one of the your-opponent-is-Blackwing adventures one of the PCs is meant to walk into their own home to find one of Blackwing's associates watching TV - and then at the end of a short 'leave it alone' speech, clicking a remote that blows up that PC's vehicle.  Never mind if the PC spent months building it themselves, modding it, spending tens or hundreds of thousands of nuyen on it; the vehicle gets blown up.  Period.

Toys, even cyberware, are there to make the character's job easier.  Their removal can be, and the possibility of their removal should be, an integral part of the storytelling that the Game Master is engaged in with the players.

And before All4BigGuns wades in and says, 'I'm in control of my character!!' - yes, yes you are.  Your choice of skills; your choice of what actions you attempt.  Your choice of what your character says or tries to say; see the conversation about 'high CHA skill player, low CHA skill character' and vice-versa.  But the player directs their character, and their character only.  It is the GM's responsibility and right to direct all the rest of the game world, with certain exceptions as described by rules for combat, skill use, etc.  It is also the GM's responsibility to use that direction to tell a good, if not great, story; players whose characters serve as punching bags for the GM -- and here's the key part -- without commeasurate growth of their character do indeed deserve to throw things at the GM, vote the GM out, walk away from the table, etc.  If, every time your house gets blown up and sixteen squads of pissed-off Ancients comes a-hunting for your character Bubba the Love Troll, you manage to survive, gain vengeance for your house, get a better one, and improve your reputation, well - you really don't have any real reason to bitch, do you?

Stuff exists to be used by the PC.  If it's abused by the PC, then taking it away is a right, responsibility, and requirement for the GM.  Just because you got a lightsaber doesn't mean Vader can't slice your hand off and make you build a new one.
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nightslasthero

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« Reply #56 on: <12-28-12/2332:43> »
Having him go against mages or spirits where his Armor is useless would be a good idea.

Have a run go bad because he was noticed in military grade Armor. (The scientist they were hired to get evacuates the building instead of staying put)

Have the organization that he got the Armor from come after him. A nice explosion as he gets in his car. (just don't kill him. Hurt him bad and maybe destroy the armor)



On the last suggestion, once again, would you suggest destroying a mages foci if you felt a particular combat Mage was over powered in your game?
I would very much make it a part of the story and give the PC every hint/chance to notice something is off. Like I said maybe destroy the armor. It really depends on how bad it is wrecking the game. Still could make for a nice run for him getting revenge/a new piece of armor

Glyph

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« Reply #57 on: <12-29-12/0721:58> »
Character's stuff should not have plot protection - hell, characters themselves can get maimed in the gritty world of Shadowrun.  But it's one thing for it to happen during the normal course of play, and another thing for it to happen because the GM is being a prick and deliberately targeting the character's stuff.  If there is a problem with game balance, the GM should let the player re-work the character, rather than "balancing" things by maiming the character or taking away his stuff by GM fiat.

Honestly, military armor is a bad idea in most campaigns.  It is conspicuous as hell, it is blatantly linked to you because it has to be custom-made for you ("If the breastplate fits, we will not acquit!"), and it invites escalation - and unfortunately, the way damage scales in Shadowrun, anything powerful enough to punch through military armor will also likely be powerful enough to outright kill the character.  Not to mention that you need the restricted gear quality, twice, to start out with it.

Novocrane

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« Reply #58 on: <12-29-12/1015:42> »
Why twice?

Mara

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« Reply #59 on: <12-29-12/1140:52> »
Why twice?

Once for the armour, once for the helmet, I am guessing.